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Thread: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

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    Default [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Easy to read version:

    Article III. Resignation of AwardsMembers who have been granted Citizenship or any other award can resign their honours, and may request them back at will if they have not been revoked in the meantime. Reinstatement of citizenship will only be admitted if the petitioner has no active curial suspensions and has not received a moderation warning subsequent to the resignation within six months prior to the request. Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave, but any misbehaviour prior to a request of reinstatement can be subject to referral if the petitioner is readmitted.


    "Changes" version:
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    The award of Citizenship and all Awards listed in Section V, Article 3 are honours given to members by the Curia. While members who have been granted Citizenship or any other award maycan refuse or resign their honours that does not reduce their right to them once they have been granted by the Curia. As such they , and may request them back at will if they have not been revoked or removed in the meantime. Reinstatement of citizenship will only be admitted if the petitioner has no active curial suspensions and has not received a moderation warning subsequent to the resignation within six months prior to the request. Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave, but any misbehaviour prior to a request of reinstatement can be subject to referral if the petitioner is readmitted. Procedures to revoke or remove a member's honours operate normally even if the member is not currently displaying them.




    Reasoning:

    • Citizens who resign are no longer bound by citizenship behaviour standards or potentially bothered by disciplinary procedures as far as they don't voluntarily rejoin the Curia. If a resigned member never requests to rejoin, his status is, to all effects, the same as a regular citizen (save for not requiring a patronization to rejoin the Curia: Reinstatement is automatic if the suspension/moderation criteria explained below are met.)


    • A (former) resigned citizen who voluntarily rejoins the Curia can be referred for any previous misbehaviour, in order to prevent that resignation can be exploited to misbehave with no consequence. These citizens can only be referred IF AND AFTER they rejoin. In other words, only active citizens can be referred. If a citizen resigns during an ongoing disciplinary procedure though, the procedure will go on normally. Should the outcome be a suspension, the resigned citizen would not be able to rejoin until the suspension is due.


    • In the same spirit of preventing that resignation can be exploited, resigned members who request to rejoin the Curia are now required to have not received moderation warnings in 6 months and have no active curial suspensions. Since it would be unfair that a moderation infraction which had a minor consequence (like a Censure) during citizenship suddenly became a 6 month prevention from rejoining just due to resigning, only moderation infractions issued AFTER resignation are taken into account. (of course, a member can rejoin before 6 months have passed if the suspension/moderation criteria is met, hence the "subsequent to resignation" detail).



    Minor details:


    • There is really no reason to reference Article I (no infractions in 6 months to join). It's simpler, more confortable, and less prone to ambiguity if we just add a "no moderation warnings" clause here.


    • This might be "a tad legalese", but I think it's better to clarify that members are not bound to obligations only while they are on leave. Otherwise, technically, members who resign would not be bound to citizenship obligations even if they rejoined the Curia afterwards. So, since words are free, let's not leave room for that potential exploit


    • There is no real need to differentiate between "refusing" and "resigning" an award. The "refuse" is unnecessary and could lead to confusion (as in: "is the member in "possession" of the award if he or she has refused it as soon as it's granted?". Currently "refuse" and "resign" are to all effects the same thing (you don't really refuse a thing since you get the thing nonetheless, there is no status difference between a refusal and a resignation, since you have the "right to it" unless revoked, so it's better to join both options into the same term and just say that the member can "resign" the award once (after) granted.


    • The current "right to them" part is very prone to fall into contradictions if we add conditions for reinstatement (no warnings, etc), and since it does not really add anything, removing it looks like a win-win. It's better if we just say that members can request awards back once granted.


    • The reference to "Section V, Article 3" (awards) is unnecessary, so I have just changed it for "any other awards" out of clarity and simplicity. The reference was also wrong since not all the awards listed in Article 3 are granted by the Curia, and the resignation of awards is valid for all awards, not just for those granted by the Curia. There is also no need to explain what awards are in a section specific to resign awards (it's explained in the awards section), so I have removed that too.


    • As has been pointed out, the "not displaying" clause is an outdated remnant from a previous system and is therefore unnecessary today. Removed.


    • I see no need to make a differentiation between "revoke" and "remove", and keeping both will only lead to confusion.


    • The rest of the changes are merely to streamline the flow of some current sentences.


    • The previously included prescription period for "downtime behaviour" that can be referred has been removed by acclamation. It's now up to the Triumvirate to decide whether an old post is worth being judged or not.







    Old Version:
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    Easy to read version:

    Members who have been granted Citizenship or any award listed in Section V, Article 3, can resign their honours, and may request them back at will unless they have been revoked in the meantime. Reinstatement of citizenship will only be admitted if the petitioner has no active curial suspensions and has not received a moderation warning subsequent to the resignation within six months prior to the request. Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave, but any misbehaviour during a leave can be subject to referral should they be reinstated.


    Changes version:
    Click to view content: 
    The award of Citizenship and all Awards listed in Section V, Article 3 are honours given to members by the Curia. While members who have been granted Citizenship or any award listed in Section V, Article 3maycan refuse or resign their honours that does not reduce their right to them once they have been granted by the Curia. As such they , and may request them back at will if they have not unless they have been revoked or removed in the meantime. Reinstatement of citizenship will only be admitted if the petitioner has no active curial suspensions and has not received a moderation warning subsequent to the resignation within six months prior to the request. Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave, but any misbehaviour during a leave can be subject to referral should they be reinstated. Procedures to revoke or remove a member's honours operate normally even if the member is not currently displaying them.


    Old Version 2:
    Click to view content: 
    Easy to read version:

    Members who have been granted Citizenship or any other award can resign their honours, and may request them back at will if they have not been revoked in the meantime. Reinstatement of citizenship will only be admitted if the petitioner has no active curial suspensions and has not received a moderation warning subsequent to the resignation within six months prior to the request. Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave, but any misbehaviour during a leave and up to six months prior to a request of reinstatement can be subject to referral if the petitioner is readmitted.


    Changes version:
    Click to view content: 
    The award of Citizenship and all Awards listed in Section V, Article 3 are honours given to members by the Curia. While members who have been granted Citizenship or any other award maycan refuse or resign their honours that does not reduce their right to them once they have been granted by the Curia. As such they , and may request them back at will if they have not been revoked or removed in the meantime. Reinstatement of citizenship will only be admitted if the petitioner has no active curial suspensions and has not received a moderation warning subsequent to the resignation within six months prior to the request. Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave, but any misbehaviour during a leave and up to six months prior to a request of reinstatement can be subject to referral if the petitioner is readmitted. Procedures to revoke or remove a member's honours operate normally even if the member is not currently displaying them.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; May 04, 2016 at 12:57 AM. Reason: updated in order to be sent to vote.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    That is the simplest solution. Support.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Would there be any issue with changing "Members who have been granted Citizenship or any award listed in Section V, Article 3, can resign their honours" to "Members who have been granted Citizenship or any other award can resign their honours"?


    If there is none, I think that has a better flow and removes unnecessary references to other articles. (I guess the question would be, are there other awards not listed in sec.V art.3 which might cause issues with this?).

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave, but any misbehaviour during a leave can be subject to referral should they be reinstated.
    Period(s) of prescription?

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Period(s) of prescription?
    Hmmm... you've got a point.

    Maybe:

    Members who have been granted Citizenship or any award listed in Section V, Article 3, can resign their honours, and may request them back at will unless they have been revoked in the meantime. Reinstatement of citizenship will only be admitted if the petitioner has no active curial suspensions and has not received a moderation warning subsequent to the resignation within six months prior to the request. Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave, but any misbehaviour during a leave and up to a year prior to a request of reinstatement can be subject to referral, should the member be readmitted.


    I see two options here:

    • up to a year: + no dates math required - too much?
    • up to six months: + same period as the other condition. - saying "six months" twice can lead to confusion.


    * Since any citizen can spot and denounce behaviour prior to a reinstatement, maybe a year is handier to work with. Note thought that it's up to a year after resignation, so it can be a shorter period if the request is made before a year from the resignation has passed.





    By the way, as a side note:

    Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave
    Is it clear enough here that "not bound to the obligations of citizenship" implies that they are not subject to disciplinary procedures? Or should I further clarify that? (not bound by the obligations AND procedures of citizenship or something like that)
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; April 22, 2016 at 09:14 PM.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    A year sounds fine. I think the reference to Sec V can be left out and obligations are clear enough to include triumvirate procedures.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Ok, updated the op with the replacement of the sec.V art.3 mention and the addition of the prescription time for referring "downtime behaviour".

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    What is the point of a referral if the 6 months provision prevents the reinstatement in the first place?
    Also, why are you going back to a year. What if the member receive multiple infractions but more than 8 months prior to the request? Ok, now they are eligible, but you going to consider each offense even though they have never received a warning from the CT? Why a year now? Seems a bit excessive. This is way too much. Keep it simple. This site needs to be fun and enjoyable, no one once to be handle like this.
    has no active curial suspensions and has not received a moderation warning subsequent to the resignation within six months prior to the request.
    "Subsequent to the resignation" is a unnecessary redundant phrase.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    I think Higo means Citizen referrals that can address non-ToS breaking behaviour in the downtime, not staff referrals.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    What is the point of a referral if the 6 months provision prevents the reinstatement in the first place?.
    The point, as has been discussed in other threads, is that the 6 months provision only covers moderation infractions, but a former citizen could be behaving like a complete jerk without breaching the TOS during downtime, and the possibility to refer that behaviour ONLY in case of reinstatement prevents that resignation can be used as an exploit to misbehave and then come back with no possible consequences.

    What this achieves is that people who want to resign citizenship permanently are not bothered by citizenship-specific disciplinary procedures as far as they are not reinstated, but those who rejoin could see negative behaviour during downtime penalized with curial warnings. It's essentially the currently existing (although not enforced) system with the difference of not forcing referrals on people who have resigned.


    Also, why are you going back to a year. What if the member receive multiple infractions but more than 8 months prior to the request? Ok, now they are eligible, but you going to consider each offense even though they have never received a warning from the CT? Why a year now? Seems a bit excessive. This is way too much. Keep it simple.
    I explained the pros&cons in post #5. The penalty of making moderation infractions prevent reinstatement for 6 months is actually quite more severe than the "penalty" of allowing behaviour to be referred for a year, since the former would always be a 6 month penalty while the later could have no consequence at all, and the consequences could be minor (a censure or a 2 week suspension is by far a much milder penalty than a 6 months "exile"). Not to mention that the older the post, the most unlikely it'll become that it's undug back, unless it has been a behaviour so obviously negative that it's easily remembered. So, this would only really mean a hindrance for those members who behave particularly bad, and I don't see how that's a negative effect.

    Put it simpler: moderation infractions ARE penalized. Referrals CAN be started, but not necessarily in all cases, and the potential consequences would be minor except for particularly negative cases. A moderation infraction prevents you from being a citizen for 6 months, the possibility of being referred for posts up to a year old does not necessarily affect your citizenship status.


    In any case, I also said I see two options here (6 months or one year), so I'll let you guys discuss which is better (but I insist, consider post #5).


    "Subsequent to the resignation" is a unnecessary redundant phrase
    I don't agree, for the reasons explained in the op. If we don't add "subsequent to resignation" clarification, it means that moderation warnings issued during citizenship and that then had no effect whatsoever on the citizen status (or whose curial punishment has already expired) would suddenly become a major penalty only due to a voluntary resignation. I see no reason to penalize voluntary resignation like that, what I want to prevent is that resignation can be exploited to misbehave during downtime and then come back "unharmed", and that's covered by the proposal, since misbehaviour, and not resignation, is what should be penalized.

    Summarizing, if a warning had no impact during citizenship, it should not become a major penalty just because of resignation.




    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar
    I think Higo means Citizen referrals that can address non-ToS breaking behaviour in the downtime, not staff referrals.
    Well, I make no differentiation between the two. It's more of an "indirect" consequence than an intentional feature: Staff Referrals would not be started during downtime due to the member not being bound by obligations, but if he or she were reinstated, I see no reason why a Staff member couldn't highlight the past infraction same as any citizen. Citizen being the ones to highlight misbehaviour would probably be more common though, if only due to their usually higher involvement in the Curia.

    Staff members would in no way be be forced to search for possible misbehaviour instances in case of reinstatement though, it's more like an optional tool for those (staff or not) who want to voluntarily highlight a reason why the citizen should be penalized by the Triumvirate.
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; April 23, 2016 at 03:59 PM.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    At the conclusion of the process, the Curator informs the referred member of the result, and asks whether the member wants the case to be made public or kept private. Cases made public are moved to the Antechamber, viewable by all members; private cases are kept in the Politia.
    Do non citizens have posting rights in the antechamber?

    If they don't, how do they post an appeal?

    Is this a whoopsy?

    Opposed.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    Do non citizens have posting rights in the antechamber?

    If they don't, how do they post an appeal?

    Is this a whoopsy?

    Opposed.
    What? Non-citizens don't post appeals.

    What do you mean? Care to elaborate?

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    If a resigned - 'non-citizen' is referred by another citizen do they not have the right to post an appeal?. But can't because they don't have access to the curia. I may have that wrong, but that seems to be the case.

    Here, mish has posted in the appeal thread, he must have done that because he was a citizen and had access. If he was referred now, he wouldn't be able to do so.

    Doesn't seem fair to me.
    Last edited by Halie Satanus; April 23, 2016 at 06:20 PM.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Nope, the way its worded it means re-instated people can be subject to a referral after they have taken up the badge again, not before, so they are perfectly well able to appeal a decision. This has nothing to do with the Antechamber, though. Nobody can post there in fact as it is only for archiving, for example, triumvirate threads where the referred requested public archivation.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    If a resigned - 'non-citizen' is referred by another citizen do they not have the right to post an appeal?. But can't because they don't have access to the curia. I may have that wrong, but that seems to be the case.
    =>

    Members who resign their citizen status are not bound by the obligations of citizenship while on leave, but any misbehaviour during a leave and up to a year prior to a request of reinstatement can be subject to referral if the petitioner is readmitted.
    Resigned citizens could not be referred. Only if they are reinstated it would be possible to do so, and once reinstated the citizen has every right to appeal the outcome. In any case, appeals are not posted by the penalized member (I assume you mean in the Questiones Perpetuae), but by the Curator, otherwise suspended members could not appeal a suspension.

    Was that the only reason why you opposed it or is there something else I should take into consideration?
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; April 23, 2016 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    What if a reinstated citizen (who now has access) decides they can't be bothered and resigned again (no more access). Does the referral still go ahead?

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Of course it should. If they decide they cannot be bothered in the midst of a referral it is their choice to reduce their capabilities of posting in the relevant threads. Apart from that, you could still appeal a triumvirate decision by a simple PM to the Curator asking them to open an appeal thread in the QP and forward them your defense reasoning or whatnot.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    What if a reinstated citizen (who now has access) decides they can't be bothered and resigned again (no more access). Does the referral still go ahead?
    What Iskar said and: What's the difference between this situation and any other citizen resigning Citizenship during a referral?

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    What if a reinstated citizen (who now has access) decides they can't be bothered and resigned again (no more access). Does the referral still go ahead?
    Yes, just like now. I think that's covered by the "while on leave" comment (if the process starts before resignation the member is not "on leave" and therefore bound by the obligations of the Curia and legitimately judged).

    I wanted to keep the paragraph as reduced as simple as possible, and I believe that part is clear enough, but if you guys think that could be an issue, we could always add another part in the end in the lines of "resigning citizenship does not invalidate ongoing disciplinary procedures". Shouldn't be necessary though.

    Whatever penalty was decided in that referral would be considered for reinstatement (for instance, it the outcome is a 4 months suspension, the resigned citizen would not be able to request a reinstatement during that period).


    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar
    Of course it should. If they decide they cannot be bothered in the midst of a referral it is their choice to reduce their capabilities of posting in the relevant threads. Apart from that, you could still appeal a triumvirate decision by a simple PM to the Curator asking them to open an appeal thread in the QP and forward them your defense reasoning or whatnot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan
    What Iskar said and: What's the difference between this situation and any other citizen resigning Citizenship during a referral?
    Exactly, a resigned citizen could appeal a previous referral just like a suspended citizen does now.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resignation of Awards Change (HigoChumbo's proposal)

    But they can't post in the thread themselves any more.

    I think, in that position I would wonder if it was worth the hassle. I think I would decide it wasn't and walk away. Since we know referrals can be made for the most arbitrary of reasons, that would be a shame.

    If this was based on staff referrals only, as per the requirements of citizenship, it might fly. But citizen referrals. No, I don't think that's right.

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