Flying Units Discussion (hover, take-off, sweeping, etc.)

[Påsan]

Honestly while nazgul-esque swooping attacks sounds awesome, I have no idea how to balance it. Essentially making them immune to melee and therefore hard-countering them. So if you find yourself in a position where you only have melee units left vs a flying unit (which will happen, especially in multiplayer) you have lost.

Really hope flying monsters are hardcapped at 1. Or else I forsee multiplayer armies consisting entirely of flyers.

Better yet. Re-introduce the system from Med 2 where units cost more the more you spam them. It was great for balancing, no idea why they got rid of it.

[Destraex]

Just looking at the video of Bretonnia and see that pregasus knights seem to hang in the air. I was wondering if they can charge on the ground the way horses normally would.
Have to watch the rest of the video but those animations would have to be amazing to depict all the possible attacks and mechanics this unit should have. Otherwise it's just window dressing as usual. Tick n flick.

[HigoChumbo]

(Had to rewrite my reply thanks to the bright mind who thought that Windows Update automatically shutting down a PC was a good idea)

I have no idea how to balance it. Essentially making them immune to melee and therefore hard-countering them. So if you find yourself in a position where you only have melee units left vs a flying unit (which will happen, especially in multiplayer) you have lost.

Well, for starters, I'd be delighted to see that kind of asymmetrical gameplay in a TW game. It should be the player's responsibility to balance the army properly and to defend the key units during battle, and if he failed to do so, he should get the hell out to fight another day with a better strategy.

And as for balancing, well it's a matter of creativity. They could for instance have sweeping attacks behave differently depending on the mass of the attacked unit: if, say, a unit of pegasus knights "swept" a unit of goblins, they should be devastating, but against bigger/heavier units, like chaos chosen or trolls, then they could get stuck as if they were vault jumpers (pretty much the equivalent of frontally charging pikemen with a unit of light cavalry).

Air units could also receive damage when they swept ground units (specially if attacking specific units such as spearmen or halberdiers), or be made particularly vulnerable to ranged fire, so that they cannot just sweep anywhere anytime with no consequences.


Smaller air units should probably be used to exploit positioning mistakes or press windows of opportunity, not to just charge as if they were a regular heavy-cavalry unit.

Really hope flying monsters are hardcapped at 1. Or else I forsee multiplayer armies consisting entirely of flyers.

Well, I see nothing wrong with plenty of different strategies as far as there is a counter for them. Typically armies with only 1 type or unit are a terrible strategy (factoring as well the cost of the units). Consider as well that air units can act as regular ground units as well, and both stances should have pros and cons.


I remember the days of Warcraft 3 where some people just made armies entirely consisting of air units like Chimaeras, thinking that they were overpowered (they were really strong), but a good player would spot that lack of balance and respond with a proper counter, potentially destroying that massed army with much cheaper, countering units. For instance, in TW, an army of nothing but wyverns could probably be easily defeated by an army of mounted ranged units.

While exploration is not an option in custom battles, some solutions could be found for that. For instance, a "draft pick" army builder where each player picked units by turns, allowing proper counters), or including some kind of system where you could start a battle with just the van (aka just a few untis), explore the enemy composition and call in other units on the go reacting to what you see. Shouldn't be that hard and has been done in RTS games for years (For instance, by the heir to the aforementioned Ground Control: World in Conflict).

[HigoChumbo]

~ Merged similar discussions, we don't really need an specific thread to discuss each minor related mechanic. ~

[Destraex]

Well watched the rest of the video. The animations for flying battles are horrible as are most of the ground combat animations. No imagination at all. Almost warcraft style stop and wiggle about a bit.
Lancers stop and wobble their lances, never switching weapons. The vampire dragon animation was the only impressive one.

[Pyrrhus the Molossian]

Well watched the rest of the video. The animations for flying battles are horrible as are most of the ground combat animations. No imagination at all. Almost warcraft style stop and wiggle about a bit.
Lancers stop and wobble their lances, never switching weapons. The vampire dragon animation was the only impressive one.

It's actually a terrorgheist which is a giant undead bat. They also have access to zombie dragons.

[Destraex]

Yeah. My point though is that most animations I hope are just place holders as they do not really depict well how I imagined those fights would take place.
Then again I have not liked the way total war has been going for a long time. Love the series and own them all. I just barely play them as I find the fights just don't remind me of battles anymore and are extremely repetitive.

[Death_Sheep]

I think honestly at this point, flying should be akin to running. A drain on the units/creatures stamina.

To use Karl Franz and Deathclaw as an example:

Single click would be a running movement on the ground, low stamina drain. Double click, taking flight to reach an area a larger stamina drain once they reach the area they land, and begin recovering stamina.

The way I see it same with an attack:

Single click, a bounding or running movement towards the enemy unit less stamina used. Double click, takes flight and dive bombs the unit, large stamina cost at the expensive of what I'd imagine would be a massive charge bonus.

Run out of stamina, you can't fly until its regenerated.

I also see it as playing both to the strengths and weaknesses of fliers. Single clicking and using primarily ground combat leaves you less 'open' to being shot out of the sky but limits your mobility. While being mobile in the sky means you are easier to take out with ranged units and are using up stamina all throughout.

What do you guys think?

[jim501]

Why?

How flying creatures circling around is silly?

I just prefer having them stationary in the air since it gives the vibe of better preparation for battle.
Having them idly flying isnt my cup of tea.
This feature existed in Empire Earth and visaully it was weird.

[HigoChumbo]

Well, I guess it really depends on the creature. If the animation is good an the "anatomy" of the creature makes it look feasible, then hovering is fine. Even for big creatures, for instance:



And I have to say, hovering vargheists look amazing (I can't tire of pointing out the superb job animators are doing).

Some other creatures look weird, though. Thinking of it I imagine that my issue is quite more related to units feeling like they are stuck in a plane rather than having the ability to fly freely in a 3D space (even if they hover when stopped).



They should at least try to make the animations feel as free flight even if the actual 3d box is stuck in a plane. Bat units look like flat tablemantles (specially if you zoom the camera down to their height), and I imagine some units, like eagles (specially those with ranged attacks, like mounted archers) would benefit from flying around instead of hovering.

I'd rather have a archers-on-eagles units hovering around, attacking a ground unit with hit&runs rather than just hovering idle by it shooting arrows down.

The current system is no different than that of any traditional RTS with flying units (a feature which is present in games as old as Warcraft 3, Starcraft or, hell, even the first Command and Conquer or Warcraft 2), and that's a quite disappointing, specially seeing how well 16 years old games such as Ground Control dealt with free flight.

[Påsan]

I think honestly at this point, flying should be akin to running. A drain on the units/creatures stamina.

To use Karl Franz and Deathclaw as an example:

Single click would be a running movement on the ground, low stamina drain. Double click, taking flight to reach an area a larger stamina drain once they reach the area they land, and begin recovering stamina.

The way I see it same with an attack:

Single click, a bounding or running movement towards the enemy unit less stamina used. Double click, takes flight and dive bombs the unit, large stamina cost at the expensive of what I'd imagine would be a massive charge bonus.

Run out of stamina, you can't fly until its regenerated.

I also see it as playing both to the strengths and weaknesses of fliers. Single clicking and using primarily ground combat leaves you less 'open' to being shot out of the sky but limits your mobility. While being mobile in the sky means you are easier to take out with ranged units and are using up stamina all throughout.

What do you guys think?

Funny as it would be to see giant bats wobble about on the ground, it don't seem like the best solution either. And it falls through on dedicated flyers like gyrocopters and eagles we'll see eventually.

For what it is worth, the current system in the game closely resemble the tabletop mechanics where flyers pretty much charge into combat (and stay there) like any other unit rather than doing the nazgul thing.

[Hekko]

Some of the units look a bit ridiculous when it comes to hovering. But ultimately I believe that hovering gives clarity to what the unit is doing/not doing, and giving information about unit facings etc. What should be improved is the idle animation while hovering, so that it looks a bit less like the Pegasi är about to throw their riders etc. I also think that the way combat is handled at the moment is best for flyers, since it would become very difficult to balance flyers otherwise.

[♔atthias♔]

Honestly while nazgul-esque swooping attacks sounds awesome, I have no idea how to balance it. Essentially making them immune to melee and therefore hard-countering them. So if you find yourself in a position where you only have melee units left vs a flying unit (which will happen, especially in multiplayer) you have lost.

Really hope flying monsters are hardcapped at 1. Or else I forsee multiplayer armies consisting entirely of flyers.

Better yet. Re-introduce the system from Med 2 where units cost more the more you spam them. It was great for balancing, no idea why they got rid of it.

was the MED 2 system not only in custom battles?

[Person012345]

was the MED 2 system not only in custom battles?

Yes, that's what he's talking about. In this case, multiplayer.

[♔atthias♔]

Yes, that's what he's talking about. In this case, multiplayer.

thanks for the answer

[jim501]

However how would it work?
Battle for Middle Earth, which has the flying units gliding through enemies, has different gameplay.
For instance, any enemy missile fire is an automatic hit, unlike in TW, there are towers that can take flyers down etc.
In TW it can result in broken balance.

[KAM 2150]

Unit could take damage for sweeping attack, they did the same in middle earth, for example sweeping attack on a unit of pikemen by an eagle was a big HP loss for a mighty bird.

[HigoChumbo]

However how would it work?
Battle for Middle Earth, which has the flying units gliding through enemies, has different gameplay.
For instance, any enemy missile fire is an automatic hit, unlike in TW, there are towers that can take flyers down etc.
In TW it can result in broken balance.

I don't see why it could not work (I mean sweeping attacks). In BfME you have automatic hits, yes, but in TW you would have units of 120 archers firing at (normally) rather large targets, effectively creating a large area effect attack (many arrows) with high chances of hitting targets.

Anyway, there are also other ranged attacks in TW which can be direct hits (like some spells), and in any case, it's not written anywhere that ranged units have to be the best counter to flyers.



Also, if CA had been a little bit more ambitious and creative, they could have implemented plenty of other mechanics to indirectly (and not necessarily kill) flyers. For instance, I remember Warcraft 3 had an ability with which certain ground units could cast a net towards a flying unit, trap it and bring it down to the ground where they could be attacked by ground melee units. Sacrifice and some ground spells which could actually affect flying units (like some huge "magic-beans-like" vines which would grow from the ground, skewer units (including flyers) and launch them really far away from the zone. They could give some lores "wind" spells to blow flyers away, etc. And I know that they are a bit limited by Warhammer's fluff, but they have adapted or ignored it when they have so required, and I honestly thought that one of the main boons of making a fantasy game was not to be bound by historical constraints, like accurate roman sandals.