Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Cuman Khanate

[Ltd.]

Well, if you ask whether they will have access to sword or axe units then my answer would be most likely not.. I am not aware of good solid sword or axe contingents when we talk about the cumans / kipchaks. They have pretty good cavalry , both melee and missile . They also have access to basic spearmen and the slavic auxiliaries and the multi purpose archers (serving both as medium infantry and heavy archers) as well as the heavily armored noble spearmen for the later eras. But like I said, their strength is in their cavalry.

[Lucem Mundum]

Yes their main power was in their cavalry, but that doesn't mean that they can't have any form of melee infantry at all. They could at least have 1-2 units of light sword/axe infantry, and one heavy melee infantry unit. This is basically just like making France entirely cavalry based.

[KAM 2150]

Yes their main power was in their cavalry, but that doesn't mean that they can't have any form of melee infantry at all. They could at least have 1-2 units of light sword/axe infantry, and one heavy melee infantry unit. This is basically just like making France entirely cavalry based.

Well, there are tons of art and other stuff showing variety of French infantry along with cavalry so your arguments does not work fully here ;P Although I am not saying that Cumans does not have the same art showing their infantry, just pointing out that you used wrong argument ; P

[Lucem Mundum]

I am well aware of the French illustrations of infantry, archers, etc, all I meant was that it is just like making France entirely based on cavalry due to the mainstream.

[OutsiderKK]

Danishmend is in the house boyzz, and he quickly solves the problem, nice

[Caucasian Iberia]

In TWA Age of Charlemagne DLC Avars have "Eurasian" appearance. I think Avar faces and beard styles can be used for Cumans as well.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is nonsense, Cumans were Turkish ethnic group, and Turks were new peoples to Caucasus, Anatolia, Byzantine and Armenian Lands.
All Turkish tribes were asian looking and only by breeding with local population today Turks look like Greeks, Pontic, Indo-European.

Turks who stayed in central asia are still Asians because they preserved their culture and blood.

Talking about Turkish tribes everyone must see or read something.

Here are Ottoman Frescos:

[OutsiderKK]

This is nonsense, Cumans were Turkish ethnic group, and Turks were new peoples to Caucasus, Anatolia, Byzantine and Armenian Lands.
All Turkish tribes were asian looking and only by breeding with local population today Turks look like Greeks, Pontic, Indo-European.

Turks who stayed in central asia are still Asians because they preserved their culture and blood.

Talking about Turkish tribes everyone must see or read something.

Here are Ottoman Frescos:

First; Cumans were not Turkish, they were Turkic.

Second; being Turkic doesn't mean all of them should look the same. Not every tribe had the same genetics.

Third; Yes we have read something and that is Byzantine chronicles. Which they wrote what they saw.

Forth; I dont uderstand why do you think Cumans would preserve their blood. They conquered lands where some of the most beautiful women live in. Ofcourse they probably had taken wives from them.

Fifth: Why the hell are you showing Ottoman Miniatures while we are talking about Cumans??? They are two separate states which were founded in diffrent areas and diffrent times...

[+Marius+]

The images you posted are merely a few of many.

How other peoples were depicted depended a lot on who painted the image as well as where he was from.

You will find plenty of Persians being depicted eerily similar to the images you posted, there are other images of Turks looking Middle Eastern as early as the 12th century.

You also fail to understand that race and ethnicity is not tied to someone stereotypically looking "white" in the western form of the term.

Google images of middle Asian countries and their peoples and you will see this, especially with Uzbek women, which go from looking completely Asian to western European.

Cumans themselves looked like a mixture of Asian and European(as did most tribes that moved westwards);

Sarkel reconstruction;

http://s49.radikal.ru/i123/0905/1c/b581bbf42262.jpg
=
http://files.school-collection.edu.r...aschnikovo.jpg


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...1/Baba_010.jpg

http://s018.radikal.ru/i506/1202/ca/735016289912.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TcPaaqq.jpg


Also, a reminder, slant eyes are not exclusive to east Asians and are a result of various effects of nature, one of which is living in areas covered by snow most of the year, that is why you have loads of Caucasian ethnic groups up north that have such features, for instance, the Komi people;

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...mi_peoples.jpg

or the Red Udmurts(which are, percentage wise, the most redhead people on Earth);

https://evolutionistx.files.wordpres...people_red.jpg


It would not surprise me that they looked like this Turkoman gentleman;

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...an_peoples.png

[Lucem Mundum]

You will find plenty of Persians being depicted eerily similar to the images you posted, there are other images of Turks looking Middle Eastern as early as the 12th century.

You do realize that there is no such thing as looking Middle Eastern, this is merely a Western stereotype. The people of the Middle East do not view their own physical appearance as Middle Eastern. Egyptians look very different from Saudis, Syrians look very different from Iranians, etc. I am assuming you have never been to a single Middle Eastern country before.

This summer buy a few tickets and visit Lebanon, Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Kuwait, and Egypt. Then tell me how different people looked during your visit...deal?

[+Marius+]

I meant that the Turks were sometimes depicted looking as the native population of the Middle East that they subdued, nothing more.

Then tell me how different people looked during your visit...deal?

Will they all be more similar to each other than they are to, lets say...Irish people?
To the East Asian People, Inuit Canadian tribes etc.?

[Lucem Mundum]

Yes, but they are still different from one another

[Danishmend]

This is nonsense, Cumans were Turkish ethnic group, and Turks were new peoples to Caucasus, Anatolia, Byzantine and Armenian Lands.

The Cumans were described as having blonde hair by Byzantine sources (they were probably Eurasian looking though). What you call "nonsense" is not my claim, they were described as such by Byzantine sources. What makes you think that all medieval Turkic peoples (stretching from Altais to Danube river) shared the same appearance? While Cumans were described as blonde haired by Byzantines, another Turkic people, the Pechenegs were described as "swarthy" by Ibn Fadlan (a 10th-century Arab traveler).

Besides, it was not even me who brought their physical appearance into the discussion, my post was merely a suggestion.

All Turkish tribes were asian looking and only by breeding with local population today Turks look like Greeks, Pontic, Indo-European.

Do you think there were strict barriers in the steppe which prevented different groups/races from mixing with each other? Central Asia was a melting pot, Turkish (Oghuz) tribes led by the Seljuk dynasty migrated from a region known as Chorasmia. Before the collapse of the Göktürk confederation they were part of the Western Turkic Khaganate. Here is a map showing the location of Oghuz tribes (7th century). They might have resembled modern Eurasian-looking Turkmens (Turkmens are Oghuz-speakers just like Azerbaijani and Anatolian Turks).

7th century AD

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This is how Grigor of Akner (a 13th century Armenian historian) describes the invading Mongols:

"The first who came against our country were not like (ordinary) people. They were awful to see and impossible to describe. They had large heads, like a buffalo, narrow eyes like a chick, short noses like a cat, protruding chins like a dog, narrow waists like an ant, and short legs like a pig. They are completely beardless, possessing the strength of a lion and a screeching voice like an eagle".


Does that ring a bell? The Turkish presence in Middle East/Caucasus predates the Mongol one, and yet Armenians describe the invading Mongols as "very different than other peoples they have seen". The Turks definitely had more asiatic apperance before mixing with local inhabitants of Anatolia and Azerbaijan, but they were not as much asiatic as Mongols.


Anyway, if you are interested in anthropology you can find billions of forums about it, the thread is getting derailed with these posts.

Turks who stayed in central asia are still Asians because they preserved their culture and blood.

Talking about Turkish tribes everyone must see or read something.

Here are Ottoman Frescos:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The first miniature depicts Adam and Eve.
The third one does not belong to the Ottomans.
The last one looks like an Uyghur manuscript.

Miniature art cannot be used reference for phenotypes, they tend to make everyone look "Asian" because it was heavily influenced by Chinese (especially after the Mongol conquests). The Ottoman miniature art can be linked to the Persian one, which in turn can be linked to the Chinese one.



For example:


Here is a Persian miniature depicting Persian heroes "Siyavush and Kay Kavus".

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Another miniature depicting prophet Muhammad

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Saladin

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Persian girl

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A miniature depicting a Turk (from Al Jazari's Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices, 12th century). As you can see this one looks different than the ones above. Medieval miniatures cannot be used as reference for phenotypes PERIOD

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[OutsiderKK]

Hey can't you name the Units like "Tribesmen, Skirmishes, Heavy Lancer" more specifically like "Slavic Auxliry Spearmen"? Because when it is like just "Tribesmen" it is like anyone can be a tribesmen. But that doesn't specify the Cuman(Turkic) Tribesmen.

It would be nice if you could give them names like "Cuman Heavy Lancer", "Turkic Skirmishes" etc. Ofcourse you guys probably know what is right for the units so I won't ask too much

[Carter938]

How come the Cuman Heavy Lancers and Khan's Lancers both have terrible morale? This makes them totally unable to fight with the heavy cavalry of the other factions unless they swarm them, as they route very quickly. I have sent Cuman Horse Archer units into close melee with european heavy cavalry and they last much longer than the Cuman Heavy Cavalry against them simply because they have better morale, which makes no sense. Is this going to be fixed?

[Lucem Mundum]

Here are some images that could help to flesh out the Cuman roster

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[LinusLinothorax]

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Definetly wouldn't like to face a guy wearing such a smiling face mask.

[+Marius+]

Definetly wouldn't like to face a guy wearing such a smiling face mask.

:D

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[Alejandro Sanchez]

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Definetly wouldn't like to face a guy wearing such a smiling face mask.

)))
The article about this armor.

[LinusLinothorax]

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No doubt the owner was some extremist weaboo.

)))
The article about this armor.

Its really badass as hell:

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Nomads always had fanciful armours.

[+Marius+]

No doubt the owner was some extremist weaboo.

...and this was his pillage tune;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF4RCOcz9ow&t=0m37s