What research does Europa Barbarorum use & I can read?

[Naga Prince]

I've always been mesmerized by the incredible wealth of information upon everything in EB1, the descriptions of military units, character biographies, reforms, etc.

Does anyone know if they have an old thread collected of listed textbooks, or websites? Something I can order off of Amazon? Would love to know.

Thank you.

[Boogie Knight]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...m-Bibliography

^ The droids you're looking for. The thread listing them is a few spaces below this one and it's usually always on the front page, but here's a link for ease of access.

[Anubis88]

A lot of info also comes from personal research by our historians and personal findings on archeological sites etc. Those are the parts you can't read. Yet. But i i wouldn't be surprised if some books are published by some of our historians in the future.

[Naga Prince]

Thank you both of you for informing me. I'm surprised at the quick responses. I'm happy.

[V.T. Marvin]

Actually I don't think we have any "yet to be publish" sources anymore. Ranika affair many years ago made the Team very careful on this account.

But it is true that the bibliography thread is by no means exhaustive. Huge amount of information has been published in their scientific journals and the collected by the historians and archaeologists in the Team and it is probably impossible to list all the individual articles that contributed to the development of this game.

:2cents:

[Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ]

Ranika affair many years ago made the Team very careful on this account.

My I ask what is Ranika affair?

[Naga Prince]

Actually I don't think we have any "yet to be publish" sources anymore. Ranika affair many years ago made the Team very careful on this account.

But it is true that the bibliography thread is by no means exhaustive. Huge amount of information has been published in their scientific journals and the collected by the historians and archaeologists in the Team and it is probably impossible to list all the individual articles that contributed to the development of this game.

:2cents:

Whats the Ranika Affair?

I've heard that research papers (if that's the same as scientific journals) are an incredible array all to themselves, but I want to learn much about this time period preferably the Greek and Celtic realms foremost, and there seems to be a vast library of things to choose from. Just not sure where.

[Genava]

Ranika wasn't the "specialist" of the Celts for EB1?

[Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ]

My I ask what is Ranika affair?

Never mind.

I can use google. Upon my usage of the google device all I can say is that tales of Ranika's misdeeds are known from Ireland to Cathay. Especially Ireland.

Ranika wasn't the "specialist" of the Celts for EB1?

Yep, he was indeed special.

[Cohors_Evocata]

Never mind.

I can use google. Upon my usage of the google device all I can say is that tales of Ranika's misdeeds are known from Ireland to Cathay. Especially Ireland.



Yep, he was indeed special.

Here's what a quick search from my side turned up. If you've got more information, I'd appreciate it if you'd share it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This thread is rather enlightening, though I will note that the person in question (Ranika) isn't present and can't defend him/herself.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It doesn't involve having to wear luminous shorts and weird padded gloves does it?

Bearing in mind that we basically know zip about the British political map in 272 BC, there's nothing wrong with using the Cassi, although calling them "Casse" probably is wrong; -e is not a legitimate plural for any stem, at least as far as I know. I just wish that the people who created the faction, which seems to be PsychoV andRanika, had said that, instead of pretending to have all these kewl Celtic scholar powerz. All we know about the Cassi is their name and that they were on the side of Caesar and the Trinovantes against Cassivellaunus and (probably) the Catuvellauni - and that's two centuries after EB starts.

I'm sorry, this is going to get long now...

On the discussion lobf links to, PsychoV provides a big long list of books. That's great, but apart from Cunliffe, most of them are very general, introductory, almost "pop" books, dare I say it. Peter Berresford Ellis is always dodgy because he's such an extreme nationalist, with all that that implies (he thinks Catullus was a Celt) It seems that at some point, as is being discussed on Wikipedia, they both decided to take Daithi Ó hÓgain's speculation on the Gaulish tribes whose names ended in -casses one step further and include the Cassi... that would be fine if they'd admitted that it was pure conjecture (as apparently Ó hÓgain himself does) but they don't. Instead we're told "We aslo know the Casse had strongs ties to the mainland. It is believed they intermarried with continental tribes and enjoyed extensive trade with the Gallic Venellii, Lexovii, Veneti, and the Belgae (Menapi, both on the continent and later in Ireland by early 1st C BC and Morini, by early 2nd C BC). It appears they also crossed the channel to give support to the Belgic confederacy eg againt Rome (Caesar 1st C BC) and Veneti alliance eg against the Tarbelii and Lemovicii (late 3rd C BC) and against Rome (Caesar 1st C BC)." We don't. We know nothing at all about the Cassi before they join Caesar. We don't even know where they lived, except that it was somewhere in South East England - therefore, even if any archaeology were to support any of this, there is no way to link it to the Cassi.

Ranika then says "the Casse were a Gallic, and then Belgic influenced tribe. We don't know them by name till a little later, and they're called the Casse/Cassae/Cassi. They're later refered to as the Catuvellauni, but that appears to be more due to the name of one of their old rulers (Vellaunus). The name is known actually from this figure, the ruler Vellaunus, who was called 'Cassivellaunus' (Vellaunus of the Cassi), mentioned by Caesar. The Casse either developed into the Catuvellauni or were displaced by more Belgic Celts in terms of rulership, but the area of influence remains the same, so any such displacement was political, and likely non-military; either way, the faction developed into the Catuvellauni; in fact, one possible meaning of 'Catu' is 'Smiters' (a euphemism for soldiers), so it'd be 'Soldiers of Vellaunus', so this figure would then have been heroic or important to the point of renaming the tribe after him" No. They get one mention in Caesar as Cassi (which suggests Brythonic *Cassi or*Cassoi) and they're not "later" referred to as the Catuvellauni; there's nothing but guesswork to make the link. They were never ruled by a Vellaunus - there's a Vellaunus recorded in an inscription in Latin, but he's a Roman Auxilliary cavalryman on the German frontier (read the inscription at L'Arbre Celtique). Catu- does not mean smiters or soldiers; it means "battle" - something almost universally agreed on because of modern Irish cath and Welsh câd. Catuvellauni means something like "Lords of Battle", "Masters of Battle" or "Best in Battle".

The main Casse page is terrible. It's just about all fiction, but I won't go into even more lengthy detail except to say that here the meaning of catu- has been changed again so now "Catuvallanorix" is supposed to mean "King of the Islanders" which it clearly doesn't; it means "Powerful Battle King"

Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with picking the Cassi as a faction, given that there's to be a faction in Britain - we know more or less as much about them as any other British tribe in 272 BC (i.e. nothing) but the material used to validate their inclusion is bogus.

I can only say this: If Ranika had quoted any sources, or even given some hints as to where his information came from, it wouldn't need him to be here to defend his assertions. Almost everything I've said on the forums you can go and cross-check and on one occasion Blitzkrieg and Tiberias Nero did some checking and were able to correct my Gaulish. Ranika didn't do anything like this except on one occasion where he quoted two archaeological sites where he claimed warhammers had been found - one turned out to be Viking and the other to contain nothing but slag. Instead he went into this almost Dan Brown world of secret unpublished Gaelic manuscripts - and surprise, surprise, three years on they're all still unpublished. Once again a mighty "hmm"

Also from the old Pritanoi preview thread.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In Europa Barbarorum 1 for 'Rome: Total War', the Casse were one of the most popular and intriguing factions, and at the same time one of the most controversial and criticised. Many of the critiques and objections raised by fans over the years had real merit, and were often mirrored by similar concerns within the team. Yet the overriding feeling was always that it would be more "historically inaccurate" to leave the great peoples of Britain without a playable faction to represent them, despite the significant difficulties that we faced in turning the limited and sometimes equivocal information that we had into the kind of hard detail required for Europa Barbarorum.

At one point during the development of Europa Barbarorum II, the team had even voted to leave the Casse out of the game, at least for the initial release. However, due to the hard work of some dedicated team members, we are happy to show you a British faction that has been remade almost entirely from the ground up. As you will see, there is a new name, a new faction symbol, a new unit roster, a whole new map and a new approach to the pre-Roman history of Britain; even the names for the family tree are new.
Although part of the original twenty factions from EB1, the Pritanoi are so different from the Casse that you couldalmost say that they are new faction themselves. In fact, the Pritanoi share with the Casse only two things: the map colour is still blue, and the faction is still located in the British Isles.

EDIT: 3rd thread found, with extra information regarding the case. I'm aware it's again Elmetiacos making accusations here, but he's still around in the internal CM forum (mostly helping with Celtic linguistics) even if some of the other earlier Celtic historians seem to have retired, so I assume he's the trustworthy one in this case. I guess this whole affair just goes to show one shouldn't just trust what one reads on the internet.

EDIT 2: same thread as one below.

[Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ]

Here's what a quick search from my side turned up. If you've got more information, I'd appreciate it if you'd share it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This thread is rather enlightening, though I will note that the person in question (Ranika) isn't present and can't defend him/herself.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also from the old Pritanoi preview thread.

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...s-and-names%29 (eb1)

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=91641.15 (different game, same "wisdom")

[Cohors_Evocata]

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...s-and-names%29 (eb1)

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=91641.15 (different game, same "wisdom")

Thanks for those.

[Naga Prince]

Wow, I never knew this till you guys brought this up. I hate to say this, but everything Ranika has done for EB1 and possibly EB2, is that all still within the game; corrupt?

So if I loadup EB1 right now, those Goidillic soldiers, men in mail from head-to-toe, hammers and two-handed swords, is that all still in the mod and wrong?

[Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ]

Wow, I never knew this till you guys brought this up. I hate to say this, but everything Ranika has done for EB1 and possibly EB2, is that all still within the game; corrupt?

So if I loadup EB1 right now, those Goidillic soldiers, men in mail from head-to-toe, hammers and two-handed swords, is that all still in the mod and wrong?

I think some of those units were removed in latest versions of EB1. As for EB2, I'm pretty sure none of it is EB2.

[Boogie Knight]

Well, none of it is on EBII from what I understand. The British faction was entirely re-done.

[z3n]

Well, none of it is on EBII from what I understand. The British faction was entirely re-done.

Correct and our historian in that area certainly knows what he's doing.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

The unit list for EB 2 is not simple addition to EB 1. It was made from scratch. The fact that one unit was in EB does not mean will be into EB 2 without to be checked.

[Commios]

Correct and our historian in that area certainly knows what he's doing.

Thank you very much z3n.

Yes, since joining the team I have done my best to remove any of Ranika's contributions. At the best they were simplistic depictions of Iron Age society, the majority were based in Early Medieval Irish sources (a source of data now heavily critiqued by Iron Age specialists) and at their worst, such as the Goidelic roster, they were works of utter fiction.

To answer the original question, most of the material I use is in the form of published material (from other authors unfortunately, this year I am hoping to get my first papers published). The only unpublished material I use comes from the public access deposits of unpublished archaeological data; for example the Archaeology Data Service for the UK, or the Cahiers Régional for French material. I would be happy to provide a list of easily accessible sources for Iron Age/Celtic archaeology if you want.

-Brennus (Commios here because Brennus is already taken at TWC... grrrr).

[lobf]

and at their worst, such as the Goidelic roster, they were works of utter fiction.

Amazing to finally see a team member acknowledge that publicly. I was one of the main anti-Ranikites back on the Org. I just spent the afternoon re-reading some of that, and the blimd commitment to the team by some people (especially Foot and Urnamma) was pretty astounding. It was as clear then as it is now what a fraud he was, yet to see the way these guys treated people like Riadach... Ugh.

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...s-and-names%29

Especially page 3, things got weird.

Anyways, glad to see that the official stance of the team is finally that Ranika is a liar. I can almost put this drama to rest.

[Anubis88]

@lobf

It is mindblowing to read this now. I have to agree with you... A good lesson learnt i guess