Elephants do not always count as cavalry for stat bonus purposes?

[Leiska]

I recently got back to playing Rome 2 and grabbed the latest version of DeI to go along with it. I started a campaign as Taksashila because I wanted to try something different and noticed they have the (supposedly) best elephant units and a faction bonus to elephant use to boot.

So, trying to boost my trunked friends to the max, I stacked stables with +cavalry melee and +cavalry charge in my recruitment centers, but now I'm beginning to realize that those stable bonuses do not seem to affect elephants, even though the same stat boosts from other sources, such as general skills, definitely do apply. I also noticed that the first +charge bonus cavalry tech (Kataphraktoi) at least does not apply. Is this a bug? It seems like any bonuses that are applied upon recruitment are the ones that do not work, while constant effects do. Perhaps they count as ranged cavalry if they have archer towers? The unit icon suggests otherwise, though. What's up with their archery stats not being displayed on the unit cards, by the way? Also, elephants for some reason can't upgrade their armour quality, not even the armoured variants.


While I'm here, I might as well bring up my slight confusion about the role of elephants in DeI. In terms of brute power, they are far more powerful than any other melee units, however, they have some crippling weaknesses that in my opinion greatly limit their range of uses:

First of all, they will evaporate against javelins, even though historically javelins were used to scare and annoy elephants, not so much kill them, as I'd imagine they were mostly impervious to such thrown missiles. Secondly, the fact that they will always immediately berserk upon contact with the enemy means you cannot engage the enemy with any other units. If you do, you will take massive friendly casualties from the elephants just destroying everything around them. Heck, they seem to even kill other friendly elephants if given enough time to berserk.

Because of all these limitations, I found the only remotely cost efficient way to field elephants is to field them with more elephants with perhaps some fast melee cavalry to chase away javelin cavalry from the flanks. A line of pure elephants will run into the enemy formation and almost immediately rout the entire army, and thanks to their high HP they don't trample each other to death very quickly. The resulting carnage is swift and absolute almost regardless of what you're facing, though a stack of almost mono armoured elephants is incredibly expensive to recruit and field, so in terms of competitive effectiveness I suspect it's still mostly a fun gimmick unit more than anything.

AFAIK, historically the successor states liked to deploy elephants in front of the main line as charge spearheads followed by attacking infantry. This seems like a terrible plan in DeI.

[KAM 2150]

Charging your elephants head on was also horrible decision during Diadochi Wars. That was literarlly the worst possible way to use your elephants as real battles proved. Also diadochi states would send even up to 50 men to protect single elephant, something that is not possible on Rome 2 engine.

Berserk is there since there are two ways to balance it, either give them berserk, after which they will be back into control and you do not have to kill them or you leave the amok thing, but then they will target your own units and you have to kill them. Also AI elephants are MUCH more dangeorus when berserk is avaliable.

Javelins are there as it is only possible way to make elephants killable on warscape engine.

[baal_be_praised]

First off, this is my first time posting in these forums so I'd like to thank the DEI team for doing a fantastic job.

I recently started (and am in the middle of) a Carthage campaign and basically have subjugated Iberia, half of Africa, Thracia, Italy and Southern Gaul. Elephants have been central to my strategy thus far and are essentially my trump card since I'm almost always outnumbered since I usually fight a garrison + full stack with a single stack. So far I've found that it's important to mix up how you use elephants because as you've found they fall really quickly to javelins.

For the iberian and the Gauls I used them as a game changer in the middle of the battle when the front lines have engaged already so there is low risk of the elephants getting hurt - it usually causes a route of the central line which minimises losses and my elephants typically get between 500 - 1000 kills if I've set up the scenario correctly.

Against the Greeks and Romans, it really depends on the army composition - I had an absolutely fantastic battle where I had only one cavalry unit to four roman cavalry, as well as the romans having a full stack and me only having 16 units with some already weary from a previous battle. I baited the roman cavalry with my general and charged the elephants directly into the mess praying my vastly inferior line would hold. In the end my line just about held and the elephants routed the roman cavalry in time to route the main roman line. I had some battles against the greeks where they had a mostly hoplite army so my elephants were used as a sort of main line allowing me to have superior numbers elsewhere in the battle.

[Dresden]

In terms of the cavalry effect not affecting them, that is a vanilla thing. But, we could look into adding the bonus to that effect also.

[Leiska]

In terms of the cavalry effect not affecting them, that is a vanilla thing. But, we could look into adding the bonus to that effect also.

You could do that, or simply change the labeling of bonuses that affect them from "cavalry" to "cavalry and elephants" and leave it as it is if you think letting elephants benefit from more bonuses goes counter to your balancing efforts.

[Maetharin]

To amend KAM's post a little, frontal charges against pikes was a dumb idea, but it certainly worked against everything else!
Hannibal used them this way and his abilities as general are beyond doubt.
If Scipio Africanus hadn't found a way to deal with them, I doubt he'd have won at Zama...

And to get back to the original topic, I think they are classified as beasts?
At least there's a "bonus against beasts" stat iIrc.
Maybe there's a modifier for that?

Best regards

[KAM 2150]

Even if it would work, it would be to costly as it took 20 years for single elephant to be considered combat ready and they would reach full battle potential around 35-40 years old (and only if they would not die due to disease or other stuff). Sending them straight into shower of javelins and other dangers would be waste of money and time. Unless you are one of the Indian states, then just send a thousend frontally and flank with remaining hundreds xD

[Maetharin]

There are battles and there are battles...

To be a little more precise (), some battles may be lost, but some battles must be won at all costs.

The only reason why Hannibal even left Spain was because Carthage would have been vulnerable otherwise.
Look how well Sertorius fought in Spain, how would Hannibal have fared?
That´s also the reason why he risked all and lost nearly every elephant he took with him.

In addition to the aforementioned factor, they would have been in need of protection, that´s for sure.
At least some good skirmishers, armored, if possible, to some degree.
Something like peltasts.

Your thoughts?

Best regards

[KAM 2150]

Depends on the nation, Indian states would have only few (around 4, one guy per leg) soldiers to defend the elephant, while in Diadochi States EACH elephant was treasured since you could only get them via Seleucids (either by taking them in battle from them, gift or buying off), therefore, Diadochi states would even commit up to 50 guys to defend a single elephant! And fun fact, when both sides had elephants, mostly the side with less elephants would be victorious : D I wrote an article about elephant warfare in Seleucid state for book published in June so feel free to ask question around that state. I never got very deep into specific elephant warfare in Carthage as they used inferior elephants.

[Maetharin]

I´d say Elephants are the perfect anti cavalry option, judging from the battle of Ipsus^^

Concerning Seleucid warfare, have you read Bar-Kochva?
I have skimmed in his book about them, and I have to say that I quite like it.

If you have read it, what are your thoughts?

Best regards

[KAM 2150]

Yes, he has some interesting stuff Main problem is that single book from Bar-Kocha costs in Poland same as a monthly rent for my 5 room flat xD

Ipsus is great example of how use your elephants the right way. It was the origin of this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CfNarCjSHM