Azeroth Total War

[Pathfinder]

The thing is i want to have maxed out factions so the campaign map of the world is filled up and i want it to feel like it's full of many different races.
Having the Horde and the Alliance races as seperate factions i think is integral to the mod i want to make. I want every faction to have a distinct feel and culture build up through their music, units and family trees. The tauren and forksaken are very different and to combine them seems wrong and removes the amount of replayability of the mod.
Also by having the sides built up from multiple races you can have the Forsaken faction for example betray or break alliances with the Horde team which wouldn't be possible if the Horde was all in one faction.

I didn't mean stop at 19 factions - I've left room for more, though that list includes all the biggest factions.

When limited to 30 factions you can't include every minor Horde and Alliance faction - there'd be no room for anyone else. Secondly, some factions in WoW start so small that they're effectively dead as independant factions. It would be implausable to have Stromgarde, Lordaeron, the gnomes or high elves. It also wouldn't make sense to have, say, Dalaran expand into Tirisfal or Khaz Modan expand into Arathi - taking lands that another Alliance faction or race would have better claims to. A super-faction solves all of this.

Jim, I would have the Alliance roster simply be huge, with full rosters for each sub-faction. Human crossbows, dwarven rifles, high elf rangers could all find themselves in the same stack, but they wouldn't be recruit-able in the same places. Ironforge would have a building that marks it as a dwarven settlement, which is a requirement for dwarven units from the barracks. Every region would have a base 'zone' building that is a requirement for certain racial settlements - you can't build forest troll settlements in the Badlands, but you can in Tirifal. I reckon this will ensure most stacks are of predominantly one race.

I separated the Forsaken and Sentinels for just the reasons you suggested Darrowmere - tenuous relations and very different beliefs. Personally I always imagined them as allies outside the Horde/Alliance framework as they just don't fit. It just wouldn't be Warcraft if the humans are dwarves separated though, or the orcs, tauren and trolls. They've been through too much together by this point.

[jim501]

When limited to 30 factions you can't include every minor Horde and Alliance faction - there'd be no room for anyone else. Secondly, some factions in WoW start so small that they're effectively dead as independant factions. It would be implausable to have Stromgarde, Lordaeron, the gnomes or high elves. It also wouldn't make sense to have, say, Dalaran expand into Tirisfal or Khaz Modan expand into Arathi - taking lands that another Alliance faction or race would have better claims to. A super-faction solves all of this.

Jim, I would have the Alliance roster simply be huge, with full rosters for each sub-faction. Human crossbows, dwarven rifles, high elf rangers could all find themselves in the same stack, but they wouldn't be recruit-able in the same places. Ironforge would have a building that marks it as a dwarven settlement, which is a requirement for dwarven units from the barracks. Every region would have a base 'zone' building that is a requirement for certain racial settlements - you can't build forest troll settlements in the Badlands, but you can in Tirifal. I reckon this will ensure most stacks are of predominantly one race.

Stromgarde could still exist as a minor faction with its only settlement being Refuge Point or maybe another one.
THen they could take the capital back and have a full roster and be inependent
Lordaeron is destroyed completely so probably they wont be appearing anway. (unless Darrowmere has plans for them)
High elves again dont thave their own regions in the Alliance.
Gnomes wouldnt be an independent faction but the ngineers and mechanics who would handle cannons and stuff.

Also the reason I think som factions should be independent is because the human kingdoms werent always peacful with each other.
Stromgarde and Alterac had fought a war for example so fighting again against former allies isnt out of the question.


The way you propose it, seems to overblow rosters however.
I think it could work if all the factions were independent but their diplomatic relations were very good at the beginning or had a high chance of making alliances.
Think of it like Lotr Total War mods, the good factions all start near each other yet they are still independent despite having good relations with each other in-lore.

What? no Pandas!?!

Anything less would make them a bit watered down roster-wise and would seem to make it harder to expand.

Don't forget Edwin Vancleef and his Defias Brotherhood - more pirates!

What do you mean "watered-down" ?
Most factions have enough units to make most units categories like skirmisher, infantry,cavalry artillery etc.
I think if there are some minor threats and enemies for them early on, expansion wont be such an issue.




Also Darrowmere, have you thought of including Alterac?
I know in-lore their kingdom is destroyed but what if it was made so they would regain it?
There were survivors anyway in the form of the Syndicate, and they can serve as human enemies for the alliance races since in the story they had betrayed them in the past. (or reconcile this time)

[Darrowmere]

It's becoming very clear to me i will never please everyone with the faction list and nothing is set in stone yet. That said i'll try and explain best i can my choices for the factions and the details of them.

The main reason for splitting the Alliance and Horde into teams of factions is that two larger factions would have so many territories they would have be able to steamroll their independant enemies. So by splitting the factions up you level the playing field. Here's my detailed run down of the teams:

Alliance:
Kingdom of Stormwind (Holy Light) High King Varian, Prince Anduin. Stormwind, 6 [Stormwind, Goldshire, Sentinel Hill, Darkshire, Lakeshire, Southshore]
Kingdom of Khaz Modan (Holy Light) King Magni, Prince Brann. 6 [Ironforge, Khranos, Coldridge, Thelsamar, Menethil Harbour, Bael' Modan]
Night Elves (Druidism) High Priestess Tyrande, Sentinel General Shandris. 6 [Darnassus, Auberdine, Astrannar, Starfall, Feathermoon, Stonetalon Peak]
Kingdom of Stromguarde (Holy Light) King Thoras (dead)*, Prince Galen. 1 [Refuge Pointe]
Nation of Theramore (Enlightenment) Ruler of Theramore Jaina, Lord (None). 2 [Theramore, Northwatch Hold]
High Elf Remnants (Englishtenment) Ranger General Jalinde, Commander (None). 1 [Quel' Danil]

Horde:
Nation of Durotar (Shamanism) Warchief Thrall, Overlord (None). 6 [Orgrimmar, Razor Hill, Crossroads, Grom Gol, Kargath, Hammerfall]
United Tauren Tribes (Druidism) High Chieftan Cairne, Chieftan Baine. 6 [Thunder Bluff, Bloodhoof Village, Taurajo, Freewind Post, Mojache, Sun Rock Retreat]
Forsaken (Cult of the forgotten shadow) Leader of the Forsaken Slyvannus, Arch Lord Varimathras. 6 [Undercity, Brill, Deathknell, The Sepulcher, Tarren Mill, The Bulwark]
Darkspear Tribe (Voodoo) Chieftan Vol'Jin, Master (None). 2 [Sen'jin Village, Shadowprey Village]
Warsong Clan (Shamanism) Chieftan Gargok, Overseer (None). 2 [Warsong Lumber Camp, Splintertree Post]
Frostwolf Clan (Shamanism) Genral Drek'Thar, Overseer (None). 1 [Alterac]

*Once Stromguarde is retaken the Absent Thoras will be removed and Galen made King.
Night Elves and Forsaken use The Teutonic method of leader and heir instead of family trees.
Each Alliance and Horde faction except Night Elves and Darkspear reccive a settlement, unique general and stack in Northrend when the Lich King awakens.

When limited to 30 factions you can't include every minor Horde and Alliance faction - there'd be no room for anyone else. Secondly, some factions in WoW start so small that they're effectively dead as independant factions. It would be implausable to have Stromgarde, Lordaeron, the gnomes or high elves. It also wouldn't make sense to have, say, Dalaran expand into Tirisfal or Khaz Modan expand into Arathi - taking lands that another Alliance faction or race would have better claims to. A super-faction solves all of this.

Why can't the minor factions be present? I have a pretty comprehensive faction list on the first page with the minor ally/horde factions and room for many independent factions.
Lordaeron and the Gnomes wont be factions. Lordaeron is dead by now the only remnants being the Scarlet Crusade. Gnomes have no settlements and will be included on the Khaz Modan unit roster.
Dalaran isn't an Alliance faction but a neutral one like it is in WOTLK and for making sense on taking lands that belong to other nations historically it doesn't have to make sense it's a total war game you create your own story if you wanted to roleplay you could give the land back to the other factions.

It just wouldn't be Warcraft if the humans are dwarves separated though, or the orcs, tauren and trolls. They've been through too much together by this point.

It would be very Warcraft to have them together but i'm aiming for World of Warcraft.

What? no Pandas!?!


Great to see a TW mod for Warcraft.

For a basis of main factions maybe:

Stormwind - Human
IronForge - Dwarf, Gnome
Darnassus - Night Elf, scripted Draenei emergence

Ogrimmar - Orc, Tauren, Darkspear (they are core of the Horde)
Undercity - Forsaken
Silvermoon City - Blood elves with a scripted alliance with Horde if objectives met.


Anything less would make them a bit watered down roster-wise and would seem to make it harder to expand.

Don't forget Edwin Vancleef and his Defias Brotherhood - more pirates!

Draenei wont be in this mod for now maybe in the future i will find a way to implement them.
The Blood Elves will be neutral at the start of the mod and it's comletely upto player discretion what they do with them. Ally to Horde, Alliance or stay neutral.
The Defias will be present with a large stack in moonbrook and a smaller one in Northshire but unfortunatly not a faction.

I think it could work if all the factions were independent but their diplomatic relations were very good at the beginning or had a high chance of making alliances.
Think of it like Lotr Total War mods, the good factions all start near each other yet they are still independent despite having good relations with each other in-lore.

The diplomatic relations of certain factions will be set such as Stormwind and the Dark Horde being at war just as all Alliance and Horde races are allied but i can set how much factions like each other. Just because factions are allied doesn't mean they like each other. The Night Elves were still unhappy with their High Elven kin just like all horde factions would be uneasy/unfriendly with the forsaken at the start.

Also Darrowmere, have you thought of including Alterac?
I know in-lore their kingdom is destroyed but what if it was made so they would regain it?
There were survivors anyway in the form of the Syndicate, and they can serve as human enemies for the alliance races since in the story they had betrayed them in the past. (or reconcile this time)

Alterac will belong to the Frostwolf Clan at the start of the mod i had thought about the Syndicate and it's not off the table but as Human enemies go The Scarlet Crusade and Gilneas arn't allied with the Alliance at the start of the game.

Other than Trollbane Hall in Arathi Basin, Stromgarde has no settlements by WoW. Refuge Point is just a refugee camp - its forest troll, ogre and Syndicate enemies control far more territory, and more settlements. Its unfair to include Stromgarde and not other comparative factions, and there are just too many of those and limited regions.

Refuge Pointe is the only settlement Stromguarde has at the start of the mod and refuge camps usually hold a lot of people so they still exist as a people they have a small army just outside Stromguarde (They had control of a third of their capital in WoW.) which is controleld by rebel Syndicate and Ogres and will be difficult to retake but the faction is designed to be challenging like other small factions. What comparative factions do you have to Stromguarde?

Lordaeron still exists in Hillsbrad and Southshore, albeit under command from Stormwind.


Its unfair to lump them under Stormwind's banner, and unfair to other factions to include them on their own. Same goes for the minor Horde factions. That's why I think united Horde and Alliance factions are best. The 'classic' Horde and Alliance don't and never seem likely to disband or loose members during vanilla WoW.

I'd rather see Azeroth conquered and dived out by a united Alliance/Horde than by just one race. But by all means have fair-weather allies like the forsaken and blood elves as separate factions.

Southshore was originally a small fishing village before being expanded and inhabited by the Azerothian refugees from the first war and so has strong ties to Stormwind so having them in the Stormwind faction seems very reasonable and Hillsbrad wont be a region as the continent of Lordaeron has many other settlements i needed to fit in.

[MacCarthy]

What? no Pandas!?!


Great to see a TW mod for Warcraft.

For a basis of main factions maybe:

Stormwind - Human
IronForge - Dwarf, Gnome
Darnassus - Night Elf, scripted Draenei emergence

Ogrimmar - Orc, Tauren, Darkspear (they are core of the Horde)
Undercity - Forsaken
Silvermoon City - Blood elves with a scripted alliance with Horde if objectives met.


Anything less would make them a bit watered down roster-wise and would seem to make it harder to expand.

Don't forget Edwin Vancleef and his Defias Brotherhood - more pirates!

[Darrowmere]

Argent Dawn, Argent Crusade, Twilight Hammer, Cenarion Circle and Might of Kalimdor are going to be similar to how the knightly orders were set out in Medieval 2. Certain factions will be able to build them in certain settlements and train elite style units. I feel like they were never large groups with their own armies (excluding twilight from cata) but would enlist people/factions to help them.

It is true Dalaran technically never officially left the Alliance but with their reclusion and rebuilding inside the Dalaran dome the forces at Netherguarde, Ambermill and outside Dalaran kept up their old hatreds but they may still not be memebers. The Kul' Tiras units in Durotar are Alliance friendly and hostile to the Horde but there is no proof that Kul' Tiras is still a member of the Alliance. I'm going along the theory that the mages after rebuilding Dalaran and moving to Northrend in WOTLK realised it's safer and increases everyones survival to be neutral and work with both sides against Malygos and the scourge.

Dalaran will start in Crystalsong forest with the Violet Stand which is one of the few timeline inconsistencies that i have.

[jim501]

Argent Dawn, Argent Crusade, Twilight Hammer, Cenarion Circle and Might of Kalimdor are going to be similar to how the knightly orders were set out in Medieval 2. Certain factions will be able to build them in certain settlements and train elite style units. I feel like they were never large groups with their own armies (excluding twilight from cata) but would enlist people/factions to help them.

If I may suggest, Twilight Hammer could be their own faction and have their base in Ahn'Qiraj since there was the home of C'thun the Old Gods' forces had a significant presence.
Otherwise I cant imagine which faction could recruit from them, since they are basically enemies of all life on Azeroth.
Unless they can be recruited by the Qiraji Empire only.


Also, how come the Warsong and Frostwolf are independent of Durotar?
Wouldnt it be preferable to make all of them the same faction ?
Or would it be too big with too many regions then ?

[Darrowmere]

If I may suggest, Twilight Hammer could be their own faction and have their base in Ahn'Qiraj since there was the home of C'thun the Old Gods' forces had a significant presence.
Otherwise I cant imagine which faction could recruit from them, since they are basically enemies of all life on Azeroth.
Unless they can be recruited by the Qiraji Empire only.


Also, how come the Warsong and Frostwolf are independent of Durotar?
Wouldnt it be preferable to make all of them the same faction ?
Or would it be too big with too many regions then ?

Ahn' Qiraj is where the Qiraji Empire will emerge and they will be able to train Twilight Hammer as would The Dark Iron Empire as they serve Ragnaros and have many Twilight ambassadors in the Blackrock Depths Instance.

Not lore confirmed but other factions that intend to destroy life on Azeroth may be able to train them under certain circumstances:

The Maraudine Clan (Fighting for Princess Theradas the daughter of the elemental lord of earth which serves the old gods)
The Dark Horde (Fighting for Nefarian the son of Deathwing who was corrupted by the old gods) (Maybe only if The Dark Iron Empire is destoryed)

Weaker links are The Fel Horde and The Scourge but maybe make them only available after certain events like with The Dark Horde.

Warsong and Frostwolf are independent of Durotar just like Theramore and Stromguarde are independent of Stormwind. Balance issues plus lets you play as orcs on Lordaeron (Frostwolf) like Theramore lets you play as humans on Kalimdor.

[Pathfinder]

What's the reason for the Fel Horde in the faction list? I presume Outland won't be in the mod, and the Legion is absent as a faction. If they're a corrupted Horde or Dark Horde, why would they need a separate faction?

[Vladyvid]

I can understand why the Horde and Alliance are divided into several factions and it makes sense to me. I would rather think to limit the number of some other factions which are lets say less relevant. I'm thinking particularly about the many troll tribes, which I think could be just aswell represented by troll rebels, at least most of them. Also not sure about the Fel Horde and some other independents like the High Elves, but for the most part I like the faction roster.

More factions symbols concepts:



Also, since I have this font and its pretty easy to do (took me like 3 minutes), maybe you want something like this to use as part of the mod's logo?

[Darrowmere]

The Fel Horde is the Horde in Outland with Kargath as the faction leader but under the control of Illidan. It will be an emergent faction that will spawn by the dark portal and surge out into Azeroth. Much like the Mongols do in original Medieval 2. Completely seperate from the Dark Horde or Thrall's Horde. It wont be present at the start but needs to be on the faction list for when it comes in later.

The reason i have all the troll tribes present is due to culture limits so making use of their culture to the max as Trolls were the original humanoid race on Azeroth and Trolls will be like the christians in Medieval 2. The Zandalar tribe will be the Papal faction with King of all Trolls Rastakhan (Pope) and Witch Doctor Council (College of Cardinals) filled by all the other Voodoo factions. Ancestral Reclamation (crusades) can be used on territories with the original options being historical Troll lands like Silvermoon.
Thinking of Making the Holy Light like Islam with Jihads becoming crusades.

Great faction symbols again. The lettering is good a bit too bright maybe a slightly darker yellow.

[jim501]

Weaker links are The Fel Horde and The Scourge but maybe make them only available after certain events like with The Dark Horde.

I understand the resoning behind all the other factions recruting Twilight's hammer but I doubt it would make sense for these 2 since they are basiacally enemies with the Old Gods.
Other than that I agree and like that Dark Horde and the rest can recruit them.

I would rather think to limit the number of some other factions which are lets say less relevant. I'm thinking particularly about the many troll tribes,

I think the troll tribes are fine as they are.
All the troll factions in the mod were major troll tribes with different culture and position so it makes sense to have them all represented like that.

[Pathfinder]

The Fel Horde is the Horde in Outland with Kargath as the faction leader but under the control of Illidan. It will be an emergent faction that will spawn by the dark portal and surge out into Azeroth. Much like the Mongols do in original Medieval 2. Completely seperate from the Dark Horde or Thrall's Horde. It wont be present at the start but needs to be on the faction list for when it comes in later.

The reason i have all the troll tribes present is due to culture limits so making use of their culture to the max as Trolls were the original humanoid race on Azeroth and Trolls will be like the christians in Medieval 2. The Zandalar tribe will be the Papal faction with King of all Trolls Rastakhan (Pope) and Witch Doctor Council (College of Cardinals) filled by all the other Voodoo factions. Ancestral Reclamation (crusades) can be used on territories with the original options being historical Troll lands like Silvermoon.
Thinking of Making the Holy Light like Islam with Jihads becoming crusades.

But the Fel Horde never invades Azeroth. The Burning Legion does, however, and during WoW's timeline (opening of the Dark Portal and again at the Sunwell). You may be trying to save on modelling work, but the Legion is a better choice for a 'Mongol invasion' faction - bigger, scarier and with overpowered units.

And I like the troll factions' presence - they are all regional powers.

[Darrowmere]

Good point pathfinder i don't want the out of outland faction too be overpowered enough to kill everyone but it was the burning legion that was trying to break out at at the dark portal event on wow. I'll think it over like the Grimtotems.

[Vladyvid]

Allright I get the idea about the troll crusaders but what about the Centaurs? Would they really deserve a faction? I dont think they are really all that interesting. Would prefer to have them as regular rebel scum and have Grimtotem Clan using their faction slot, cause as I see you only have one tauren faction and since the Grimtotems decided to fight the Orcs it could be interesting to have them included, hmm?

[Darrowmere]

I really had put some thought into the Grimtotem clan before as all they do have a few settlements in Kalimdor like the centaur and so would keep the balance of factions on each continent the same. Would save on modelling as i can redo the Horde tauren models slightly. I'll put some thought and research into it and let you know.

[jim501]

I really had put some thought into the Grimtotem clan before as all they do have a few settlements in Kalimdor like the centaur and so would keep the balance of factions on each continent the same. Would save on modelling as i can redo the Horde tauren models slightly. I'll put some thought and research into it and let you know.

I think the Grimtotems would be a nice addition, not only because they would make interesting enemies, but because they are easily distinguishable from regular tauren due to their appearance and offer visual variety.

If you want models, I suggest checking Call of Warhammer since they already have minotaurs and ask permission.
That is what they look like there, dunno if you like this model though.

[Sulfurion Blackfyre]

Huh. Yeah, a Warcraft mod should totally happen. Mhm, yes it should. Totally.

A piece of advice, if I may (I was one of the developers of THC's Warcraft mod). If you can't model or you don't find any modelers.. you might as well just forget this idea. This was the singular reason why the other mod failed. No matter how much planning and organisation you have, 2D art, all the boring text work (names, etc), a whole developed map, well laid out and balanced unit rosters, or even if you have lots of people coming here to support and give suggestions and etc. All of that does not matter if you cannot find 3D modelers willing to help.

Btw, since I have some experience and I hated to see the other mod die... if you want I can help with this one. Again.

[jim501]

Huh. Yeah, a Warcraft mod should totally happen. Mhm, yes it should. Totally.

A piece of advice, if I may (I was one of the developers of THC's Warcraft mod). If you can't model or you don't find any modelers.. you might as well just forget this idea. This was the singular reason why the other mod failed. No matter how much planning and organisation you have, 2D art, all the boring text work (names, etc), a whole developed map, well laid out and balanced unit rosters, or even if you have lots of people coming here to support and give suggestions and etc. All of that does not matter if you cannot find 3D modelers willing to help.

Btw, since I have some experience and I hated to see the other mod die... if you want I can help with this one. Again.

Would this be any help for moddeling ?
It was posted in the old warcraft mod thread.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1672

[Darrowmere]

Huh. Yeah, a Warcraft mod should totally happen. Mhm, yes it should. Totally.

A piece of advice, if I may (I was one of the developers of THC's Warcraft mod). If you can't model or you don't find any modelers.. you might as well just forget this idea. This was the singular reason why the other mod failed. No matter how much planning and organisation you have, 2D art, all the boring text work (names, etc), a whole developed map, well laid out and balanced unit rosters, or even if you have lots of people coming here to support and give suggestions and etc. All of that does not matter if you cannot find 3D modelers willing to help.

Btw, since I have some experience and I hated to see the other mod die... if you want I can help with this one. Again.

I agree i can't believe there wasn't a finished warcraft mod and in the end i felt like i had to make one or be part of it.

I'm hoping to learn about modeling and maybe get to the point i could call myself a modeller and do some of the work but i knew i'd always need help. So i'd be very happy to have your help Sulfurion Blackfyre

[Sulfurion Blackfyre]

I am not a modeller though and even though I tried to learn back in the day I never really managed to get the hang of it. What I can help with is all the text work and 2D art, which is what I worked in the other mod. Anything you need regarding that, just tell me.