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March 30, 2016, 12:14 PM
#1
Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
I've just played Third Age Total War to death. Thoroughly enjoyed it (see my various posts on Dale, SE and Gondor) but felt I needed something new (or newish anyway)
I had S2 vanilla but deleted it from my computer 'cos I hated it a couple of years ago.
I started again with S2/Darthmod. I think that is miles better. (I take my stormtrooper's helmet off to you oh departed asthmatic evil one!).
But I am having problems getting into the game. My play style is turtleish (tortoise? terrapin?) where I keep my head down and build a a powerful economy before I go on the rampage.
I tried the short campaign with the Shimazu (H/H). After about 25 turns and 1 military disaster I feel I am stuck. I've got the three initial provinces, but the Shoni have Higo and Bungo and I don't feel I can attack Bungo there's a bigger shoni army there and all those christians (I am reliably informed that your army loses 15% mobility because of all the bible-sellers ).
Thought I start again with the Chosokabe (H/H). Waited one turn to attack the rebels. When I'd destroyed them after about 3 turns I went for the Koni. I was aiming to build a Sake Den asap to get a ninja - I don't like going forward blind (and of course you get a spy from turn 1 in most other TW games I have played). Had a military disaster in front of the Koni castle, daimyo and son wiped out with nearly entire army. I didn't have any force multiplier and the three extra garrison units were too many to handle.
The diplomacy seems pretty useless overall.
The Koni are hiding in their castle, getting stronger, while I lay waste to their province. I can't outproduce them with units to gain a numerical advantage and my men aren't qualitatively superior.
So I am not really that enamoured of the game, which I ought to love. Am I doing something wrong? It's very difficult to blitz with only one province and an underdeveloped economy.
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March 30, 2016, 02:21 PM
#2
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
What I was trying to say was, with both games, I seemed to have very limited options, which ran out pretty quickly. For example in the Chosokabe game I only have one castle so I could either build a sake den or a sword school. That means I either have intel capability, but no shock troops, or vice versa. I need both, and by the time my creaky economy gets big enough to upgrade the castle, I will be on the back foot again.
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March 31, 2016, 03:09 AM
#3
Laetus
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
Hi there,
First: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...-War-Shogun-II
Great starting material. Some things are outdated with the patches but the core is still valid and very high quality.
Then, I would strongly recommend you to start with the normal difficulty. A lot changed since M2, including the difficulty, and youīll get outmatched by the A.I. rather quickly, especially if you turtle. A lot of things that you think knowing from previous total wars donīt apply here. Out of my head
-Archers are deadlier, especially on sieges
-You need diplomacy to win. Donīt hesitate to make allies, and to pay for them (or marry your daughters).
-Cavalry is much less all powerful, especially due to wide use of yaris.
-The A.I. will play for the win. They will build troops, conquers regions and forge alliances not only against your actions, but for their own sake. You no longer give the pace of the game, you need to get really proactive
-Itīs a lot more about cost efficiency than previous total wars.
A Few starting tips:
-Ashigarus easily break, samurais donīt. When you face a mixed army, try to aim routing the peasants and THEN killing the samis.
-About Ashis, they are very cost efficient. With a good general, they are very valid troops until end game.
-From the art of war tree (left), choose either high end archers and sword warriors (right from the left tree), or better spear warriors and matchlock (left from the left tree). The later gives you a better start (the stat boost helps your yari ashis a lot), the former better end game.
-If I can choose between a unit and an economic upgrade, I usually go for the unit (very different logic from other total wars, at least for me).
-Province development is a lot more about clever choices instead of just building the next thing. Choosing the sword dojo over the market gives you better troops, but less good economy. Plan ahead.
-Donīt automatically upgrade your buildings, especially markets and castles, due to food consumption.
Good luck, have fun.
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March 31, 2016, 06:54 AM
#4
Libertus
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
To Thelann's great points, I would add these. The Metsuke is a vital character, both economically & defensively (vs other characters) & it's important to focus on creating as many as possible in the early game, so you should look to build Markets first, above all. In any typical early start, with any of the playable clans, I almost always have four Metsuke by the time I've reached six provinces & park them in the most profitable towns. Other characters, monks & ninjas, are early game luxuries & not absolutely necessary in the beginning. It is nice to have one of each at the peak of the early game & yes you will be flying a bit blind, but that's ok.....the Metsuke ARE the early game economy & that's most important. Trade ships are the other vital part of the economy for any of the southwestern clans & you need to build your ports to allow trade & the creating of trade ships. Occupy as many of the nearby trade nodes as you can. It's important to physically occupy them with any ship before anyone else does, so you'll need to build & send a few bow ships to make sure they'll be 'reserved' for you. Make sure to be aware of the political temperament of your neighbors. Just as you can be confident in any alliance with a clan that is described as "peacefull" or "defensive", make sure to be wary of any that are known to be "aggressive" or "ruthless". An alliance with an "ambitious" clan will drag you into unexpected wars & make things much more difficult. It's important to be at war when YOU want to be at war.
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March 31, 2016, 11:40 AM
#5
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
Thanks Thelann and Wiesel. I shall take your sage words on board!
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April 05, 2016, 05:28 AM
#6
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
The game is going a lot better now, though I still have some things I'm not happy about.
I disagree with wiesel about Ninja. I have found them to be really important. I was going to attack the Sogo but my Ninja found they were fighting the Myoshi so let them get on with it then picked off the winner.
The whole island is now in my control. I consolidated for a few turns then got my Daimyo and an amphibious invasion force together of my upgraded troops - target Bingo /Kikkawa. My reasoning is that I should expand North so I can capture provinces near Kyoto so I don't have to go to far for the final assault and as my major recruiting centre is Iyo It will be a short journey for my best troops.
In previous TWs the blitzkrieg nature of shipborne attacks has been a favourite of mine. The AI is usually caught napping. In winter I loaded up my ships (2 x bow kobaya) with a stack around 15 units and a monk and ninja. In spring I landed on the coast of Bingo, but that was all I could do. I was in the ZoC of another (neutral fleet) and I found I could not unload the agents. So they stayed on the ship and I was attacked by a fleet of one bow kobaya and 6 trade ships! This all went horribly wrong. The trade ships had enough firepower to overwhelm me so I fled (to save the agents). On ship "routed in place" - I.e sat there and was destroyed. Instead of giving it a withdraw command I should have withdrawn it manually as I did the other kobaya, which escaped, only to be hunted down and destroyed, with the loss of both agents. Although that has taught me about naval battles. I have a trade node and I had presumed the trade ships were useless in battle, but en masse they are not.
I was just annoyed at the loss of the agents; I thought I might not be able to move and siege the castle on the same turn but the next one, clicked to attack the Kikkawa army that had tunred up next to the castle and the computer moved the army in the wrong direction, into a forest. So much for a coup de main. Finally I destroyed the army, lost my Daimyo ( not paying attention), captured the Bingo castle easily from the shattered remnants that had escaped the previous battle.
My economy is good.
Because of alliances, the next likely target was Miyoshi Mk 2 who have just re-emerged in Bessho and Settsu.
I was able to put another 16 unit army together under a general, and aim for another amphibious landing in Bessho. This time I will seize the port directly (in Empire, if you seize a port you can move an army afterwards). I couldn't move (?) but captured the castle next turn so I have 7 provinces.
Two 16 unit Miyoshi armies have turned up. Miyoshi now has only one province and it is supporting a minimum of 3200 Koku soldiers' wages. Not to mention I don't know how it could have created these armies in the time it had, so I am assuming there is some sort of garrison script? I can only support the two (One heavily damaged) armies I have with 7 provinces, a couple very well developed and 1-2 K worth of trade. This does feel like the AI cheating to me. Sigh.
Last edited by julianj99; April 05, 2016 at 05:37 AM.
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April 05, 2016, 05:29 AM
#7
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
Basically I don't want to attack the Miyoshi as I am outnumbered 2:1, even though I probably have better quality units.
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April 05, 2016, 05:36 AM
#8
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
That all sounded like a bit of a whinge! One of the things I like about S1 and S2, is that each faction has the same units (I know some other players don't). It means you cannot relay on some battlefield super unit for victory, it's like chess, everybody plays with the same pieces. I find that an interesting challenge.
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April 05, 2016, 05:47 AM
#9
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
My favourite unit is the sole unit of Matchlock Ashigaru in my forces - they have performed outstandingly in battle, shooting up enemy units, backed up by bowmen and people with pointy sticks to rush forward when someone wants to have a rumble with my gunpowder peasantry. In each battle they have only lost about a dozen men and caused hundreds of casualties, not to mention the morale breaks.
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April 06, 2016, 04:01 PM
#10
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
I haven't attacked the last miyoshi province because of the 32 units there. It's only got a tax revenue of 100+ so it cannot support those troops...
Instead I've attacked Bizen and Bitchu with the Yamana (allies of the Miyoshi) and had some victories, although my forces are regularly defecting. It is incredibly irritating to now be able to build upgraded troops, then have to destroy them on the battlefield!
At sea, I seem to have become a salty sea-dog, with about four victories in a row with my 2 Med Bune 2 bow kobaya fleet. I still don't understand how naval battles work and the lack of the usual little cues telling you your archers are firing, or you are being fired on, is annoying. Does Not in Combat mean not in melee combat? Do the bow kobayas have to stop to fire - that doesn't make sense? Do you have to get broadside on? Surely that's only for cannon vessels?
I have to say, the verdict is still out on S2 compared to Third Age Total War. I'm as big a fan of Samurai movies as I am of Tolkien, but not quite understanding the various mechanisms of the game can be a bit wearisome.
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April 10, 2016, 06:49 AM
#11
Libertus
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
Julian, happy your enjoying the game. Know that you don't need an agent to discern local diplomatic goings-on.....you can determine what a neighboring clans disposition is towards all of their neighbors in the diplomacy page, wars, alliances & attitudes. Often a single ship moving along the coast serves as an excellent scout, so, no need to waste your ninjas scouring the countryside, Medieval 2 style. The problem with agents in this game (resolved in Rome 2) is that they don't gain experience well when simply 'in the field'. They have to be placed in a town or in an army to gain 'inactive' experience. I don't want you to think I believe Ninjas are unimportant, they actually have one of the most important abilities in the whole game, that of sabotaging armies, a mid game & late game necessity. Sadly, the Geisha agent, a late game technology limited possibility (& you can only have 1 in your clan), can't sabotage armies & only has the ability to assassinate.......very disappointing for what seems to be touted by the game as a super-ninja.
Last edited by wiesel; April 10, 2016 at 07:48 AM.
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April 13, 2016, 04:44 PM
#12
Re: Having problems getting into the game - any suggestions?
It's still a "game of two halves" = going either way. I've played some more turns invading North of shikoku. I find the huge casualties your army suffers, even if you win a bit offputting.
Being British, I should be happy that my Home Fleet (the 2 medium Bune, 2 bow kobaya) is winning on the not-so-High Seas, but I find the naval battles very trying, and there seem to be so many of them. I can't gain control of the waters between Choko home territory and the main island, the last battle was against one Yamana bow kobaya and 8 (?) trade ships. I boarded and captured every one of them. It took ages. When I saw the victory screen I'd only captured the Bow kobaya, all the rest ran off to fight again another day. I can't ship units across the narrow sea without naval superiority.
In terms of Sengoku warfare, it doesn't seem right - AFAIK naval battles were hardly a part of the situation. I've read a lot of books about Samurai warfare and it isn't ever mentioned.
I don't even feel motivated to play. In Third Age TW I was getting up early to play a turn before work, and playing long into the evening. Horrible setbacks like being stomped by the Balrog(s) didn't make me give up. I expected to feel the same now that Darth had fixed the S2 problems, but I have to say I'm not.
Last edited by julianj99; April 13, 2016 at 04:46 PM.
Reason: added smiley
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