Battle Speed Makes the Battles Too Easy

[TheLastRonin]

With the higher HP the battles become all about flanking with cavalry and repeatedly charging into the backs of the enemies units while they are tied up by defensive heavy infantry (the anvil). While this may be historically realistic the AI absolutely cannot handle this strategy as it does not make any effort to protect its flanks. With this strategy I have crushed armies that are up to x10 as large and better equipped with nothing but levy garrisons and a general unit to do the charging .

Using the 'ultimate battle speed mod 2.0' (which lowers HP by 10) in the submod forum helped the AI out a lot. Now the AI has a chance of breaking your frontal line before you get your cavalry into position (you can still do it but you've got to be a lot faster and generally only have time for 1-2 charges before the lines have started to break vs the ridiculous 11-12 charges of vanilla DEI). Generally this means that at least in situations where the AI has better or more troops they have a good chance of breaking your lines.

It also has the added bonus of making ranged units not absolutely useless (although even with that submod they're still pretty bad sadly). At least when they hit a side flank now they can get more than 2-3 kills per volley.

You guys should consider tweaking the HP to be a little bit lower to assist the AI and increase the effectiveness of skirmishers.

[KAM 2150]

Nope.

[TheLastRonin]

Nope.

You're going to have to elaborate because I'm telling you right now... Whatever changes this mod has made to the battles have caused it to be impossible to lose to the AI. I can provide videos of a 3 man hastati army with a unit of generals bodyguard defeating mixed forces which include skirmishers and cavalry 4-5 times their size by just spreading out in a thin line, rushing around the back of the enemy army with the general and repeatedly smashing into the infantry while ignoring everything else.

Surely as lead battle balance designer this requires a little bit more of a response than 'nope'.

[ThatWhichThinks]

Haven't we been through this already? In 1.1 (I think) KAM introduced a new battle system that, as far as I and most others who have used it can tell, mostly got rid of this problem. In fact, there were threads howling in rage that battles had been made too fast, DeI now felt like an arcade game, etc.

The AI will always be the AI, but since 1.1 I have seen it defend/attack flanks much more often. Also, I don't know in what situations you are able to crush 10x larger armies, but even elite pikes can't hold up forever under that kind of punishment. What faction(s) are you playing? Playing as any Celtic faction, getting my line to hold against Romans is a miracle. Getting Hellenic lines to hold against Eastern? Not so hard, but their cavalry mauls me if I'm not careful.

Also, what kinds of ranged units are you using, and how? Javelins will massacre units as long as they have ammunition, even from the front. Slingers can annihilate light troops. Archers can wreck entire units if left unchecked. The key is often in deployment and positioning.

Yes, the AI often doesn't protect its flanks as skillfully as a player would, but if they field any cavalry they usually at least try to engage any flanking cavalry I have; sometimes they even toast my flanking attempts in the process.

Even if you don't see that behavior, making the infantry fight last exactly as long as it takes for horses to run around the formation seems like kind of a strange solution.

Also, Kam has posted many threads and videos about why balancing with the Rome 2 battle AI is a nightmare. Even if you are just way better at the game than most of us (and you might be, this isn't sarcasm), an all-around lowering of hp would require a complete and total overhaul of how all of the other stats work (just ask the Ancient Empires team), which would be a whole lot of work for a problem that most players don't think exists.

[TheLastRonin]

Haven't we been through this already? In 1.1 (I think) KAM introduced a new battle system that, as far as I and most others who have used it can tell, mostly got rid of this problem. In fact, there were threads howling in rage that battles had been made too fast, DeI now felt like an arcade game, etc.

The AI will always be the AI, but since 1.1 I have seen it defend/attack flanks much more often. Also, I don't know in what situations you are able to crush 10x larger armies, but even elite pikes can't hold up forever under that kind of punishment. What faction(s) are you playing? Playing as any Celtic faction, getting my line to hold against Romans is a miracle. Getting Hellenic lines to hold against Eastern? Not so hard, but their cavalry mauls me if I'm not careful.

Also, what kinds of ranged units are you using, and how? Javelins will massacre units as long as they have ammunition, even from the front. Slingers can annihilate light troops. Archers can wreck entire units if left unchecked. The key is often in deployment and positioning.

Yes, the AI often doesn't protect its flanks as skillfully as a player would, but if they field any cavalry they usually at least try to engage any flanking cavalry I have; sometimes they even toast my flanking attempts in the process.

Even if you don't see that behavior, making the infantry fight last exactly as long as it takes for horses to run around the formation seems like kind of a strange solution.

Also, Kam has posted many threads and videos about why balancing with the Rome 2 battle AI is a nightmare. Even if you are just way better at the game than most of us (and you might be, this isn't sarcasm), an all-around lowering of hp would require a complete and total overhaul of how all of the other stats work (just ask the Ancient Empires team), which would be a whole lot of work for a problem that most players don't think exists.

I play as Romans almost exclusively (it is Rome Total War after all ) and the only thing I form my central line with is hastati.

In my experience javelin troops do almost no damage from the front (2-3 killed per volley). The only way I have gotten use out of them is by throwing javelins into the backs of the enemy and really why bother with that when I can just replace the skirmishers with more hastati who could flank and do much more damage instead? I used arrows once (Syrian archers) and I saw a full volley get zero kills against the cheap as chips Germanic spear warriors (the levy ones)... Disappointing... I mean... Yes they have shields... The shields aren't force-fields that cover the whole body at all times though. Compared to Medieval 2 and Shogun 2 the ranged combat feels horribly under-powered.

I assure you I am not a good player. Heck I'm barely an average player. I am surprised more people have not voiced this concern.

Thank you for the post by the way. I was pretty put off when the first response was a one word response from a developer. First time modded RTW2 player but long time fan of the Total War series (so I don't know what anybody has been over in regards to any of the RTW2 mods, I am coming from Shogun II Total War which I adore).

[ThatWhichThinks]

Also, another thing about missiles: one volley rarely tells the whole story. Especially with slings/arrows you probably won't see significant kills until the second or third volley as armor gets worn down. But, archers can wreck levy units if allowed to do so.

Edit: I found the thread where the battle mechanics are explained in detail:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...n!)&highlight=

[ThatWhichThinks]

I have been trying to find some of the threads where Kam explains the mechanics, but they're from back in December and this site's forum searches are not the best.

Romans kind of set you up for this problem, though. They are awesome at wearing down enemies if they are cycled in and out of combat. One thing the AI almost always fails to do is cycle out exhausted troops. In this mod, tired troops are useless troops. Romans also have amazing morale (I have learned this extensively in my Arverni campaign...), especially if you have generals specced to boost it even more. Early game/against Celtic armies you are going to win the frontal fight even if outnumbered just due to armor and morale until your troops get exhausted. Then, in late game you have legionnaries (but the Celts get some pretty awesome elites, so it kind of evens out).

To beat you as Rome, the Celtic AI has to flank you with its superior cavalry or wear you out with numbers/missiles, and against Romans only persistent fire from the flanks (which the AI never does) or javelins (which have low ammunition) will do the trick.

Rome really is kind of playing the game on easy mode unless you are fighting Parthians, steppe nomads, or elite Successor armies. If you really do want to test out the system, try playing as a Celtic nation or Parthia. Then, you will wish you had the problem of your lines holding too long.

If that is still too easy, you could always up the battle difficulty (though be warned this will make the balance really wonky and makes ranged units overpowered).

[Vardano]

I personally think missile troops are at very good balance, if you will make them even more powerful, they will be simply OP, all you will need is spearmen who can hold against enemy and you missiles will win battles for you. To be honest you still can do this with a factions who have strong archers, just upgrade your general with skills to increase the range, damage and an amount of ammunition for missiles and you'll be super stong, since you can annihilate even very well armoured horsemen or elephants before they even can reach your troops. Said this, I have to admit there is no single battle where I'm not looking for a flanking, but it was like this in all of my favorites Total War mods.

Try to play campaign against factions who gonna field at least 15 horse archers and you will see what kind of damage they can do.

[Dresden]

KAM responded like that because this has been a topic discussed a lot after 1.1 came out (and actually in the opposite direction), so excuse him for probably being tired of posting the same things a lot.

Our battles in previous mod versions were even slower and more about hammer and anvil. In 1.1, we changed quite a bit to increase difficulty and one of those was actually battle speeds. You have to remember that in DeI, there are a ton of variables. Every faction is extremely different, difficulty levels matter, etc. Having said that, Rome is probably one of the easier factions and it is by design. We always recommend normal battle difficulty because higher ones can cause unbalance, but I know some veteran players play on Hard/VH also.

Believe it or not, but our current battles caused a bit of a backlash about their faster speeds and difficulty. One of DeI's original core tenets and reasons for players enjoying it was that it had much slower, realistic battle speeds. Sadly, these also made it so that the player had plenty of time and the AI didn't have much of a chance. If you want faster battles or slower battles we have a lot of submods to change it to your liking. The reason we do submods is because DeI is popular and we have to work with a range of players who play many different factions, difficulties and at varying skill levels.

That all being said, we are always working on the battle system. KAM has more plans for 1.2 to improve it in various ways and he is always trying to make the AI better within our constraints of modding possibilities.

[TheLastRonin]

KAM responded like that because this has been a topic discussed a lot after 1.1 came out (and actually in the opposite direction), so excuse him for probably being tired of posting the same things a lot.

Our battles in previous mod versions were even slower and more about hammer and anvil. In 1.1, we changed quite a bit to increase difficulty and one of those was actually battle speeds. You have to remember that in DeI, there are a ton of variables. Every faction is extremely different, difficulty levels matter, etc. Having said that, Rome is probably one of the easier factions and it is by design. We always recommend normal battle difficulty because higher ones can cause unbalance, but I know some veteran players play on Hard/VH also.

Believe it or not, but our current battles caused a bit of a backlash about their faster speeds and difficulty. One of DeI's original core tenets and reasons for players enjoying it was that it had much slower, realistic battle speeds. Sadly, these also made it so that the player had plenty of time and the AI didn't have much of a chance. If you want faster battles or slower battles we have a lot of submods to change it to your liking. The reason we do submods is because DeI is popular and we have to work with a range of players who play many different factions, difficulties and at varying skill levels.

That all being said, we are always working on the battle system. KAM has more plans for 1.2 to improve it in various ways and he is always trying to make the AI better within our constraints of modding possibilities.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I am starting to think somehow I have broken my version of DEI because a unit of hastati fighting a unit of Germanic spears from the front seems to inflict maybe 2-3 causalities on the unit per two minutes and its starting to sound like it isn't like that for anybody else? I did have the Ancient Empires submod also enabled but to my knowledge they have dropped their changes to the unit stats for their most recent version and my units are just using DEI? I can't seem to imagine the fight being any slower than that?

I have not tried to 'cycle' exhausted troops though. Wouldn't this cause my troops that break out of combat to suffer hideous causalities? It did in vanilla.

[ThatWhichThinks]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I am starting to think somehow I have broken my version of DEI because a unit of hastati fighting a unit of Germanic spears from the front seems to inflict maybe 2-3 causalities on the unit per two minutes and its starting to sound like it isn't like that for anybody else? I did have the Ancient Empires submod also enabled but to my knowledge they have dropped their changes to the unit stats for their most recent version and my units are just using DEI? I can't seem to imagine the fight being any slower than that?

I have not tried to 'cycle' exhausted troops though. Wouldn't this cause my troops that break out of combat to suffer hideous causalities? It did in vanilla.

it is tricky, but doable, though if morale is already too low it might break the troops, might not. I find that if you send a fresh unit in, let it try and work its way through the tired unit, and then order the tired unit to retreat, it should be able to slip behind the fresh unit before routing.

[Ygraine]

I can share the original combat balance (how it was in version 1.0 and before that) with the public that me and my friend made - compatible with the latest DeI version. All new units added since then have also been balanced to fit the original combat system that was Divide Et Impera's unique signum. Throw me a PM, if there's enough interest I'll upload it to the submod forum and keep it updated for future unit additions.

I personally can't play the mod with the new balance at all but on the bright side this forced me to learn how to mod Rome 2 to be able to change stuff back

[Dresden]

The original poster is actually saying the battles are too slow in the current version Ygraine But I am sure there would be interest in the original battle version also, you should post it in the submod forum.

[Dresden]

That definitely doesn't sound right. You could try a custom battle with just DeI and see if it is the case or not. Also, I always tell people to reverify their game cache and make sure they have the latest versions, etc.

[dahooscarl]

KAM has spent countless unpaid hours designing a mod purely for the enjoyment of people he may never meet or talk to. If he wants to give a one word answer to a question that has been reasked and reworded dozens of times, he's more than earned that right. No one in the forum, developer or otherwise 'owes' answers to anyone. They answer questions and problems because they want to, and their passion for the game and the craft compelled them to. Not because they have to.

[TheLastRonin]

KAM has spent countless unpaid hours designing a mod purely for the enjoyment of people he may never meet or talk to. If he wants to give a one word answer to a question that has been reasked and reworded dozens of times, he's more than earned that right. No one in the forum, developer or otherwise 'owes' answers to anyone. They answer questions and problems because they want to, and their passion for the game and the craft compelled them to. Not because they have to.

Has he earned the right to speak for himself or are you holding onto that one for him ?

There's a difference between respect and worship. If you think that someone should be given a pass because of who they are or what they've done you've crossed that line. Would you expect the leader of your country to refrain from embezzling funds from your country? I'm going to assume yes. Why? Haven't they earned a little bit of embezzlement? Shouldn't we think about all the good things they've done for the country and hold our tongues?

I'm not going to apologize for holding him to the same standards that I'd hold anyone else to, anything less would be hypocrisy. Anyway the thread has moved on and tilting at windmills is not going to achieve anything. Can we get back to the discussion at hand please?

[KAM 2150]

Nope.

[TheLastRonin]

Nope.

Yep.

[Dresden]

Has he earned the right to speak for himself or are you holding onto that one for him ?

There's a difference between respect and worship. If you think that someone should be given a pass because of who they are or what they've done you've crossed that line. Would you expect the leader of your country to refrain from embezzling funds from your country? I'm going to assume yes. Why? Haven't they earned a little bit of embezzlement? Shouldn't we think about all the good things they've done for the country and hold our tongues?

I'm not going to apologize for holding him to the same standards that I'd hold anyone else to, anything less would be hypocrisy. Anyway the thread has moved on and tilting at windmills is not going to achieve anything. Can we get back to the discussion at hand please?

No one asked you to worship us. But, sometimes we run across an attitude of expectation and entitlement that can get quite old after awhile. We aren't leaders of a country or even paid help. We are modders who have decided to, in our own free time and with no payment, make a mod for other's enjoyment. On top of that, we try to be as interactive and responsive to the community as possible on a daily basis. Regularly, we answer the exact same questions repeatedly day in and day out. I spend about 2-3 hours a day just answering Steam, TWC, PMs, helping others, etc. It gets to where I barely find time to mod many days. And this is a "hobby" ?

I am a bit tired of reading people accusing us of only wanting praise or demanding worship. First, if you read around we respond to many issues/criticism and try to help figure out the source. Many times its not the mod itself, even, but we still help. Second, we don't owe anyone anything at all. The very fact that people come to expect us to respond to every comment and post is a testament to just how much this mod team does give back.

Anyway, the issue at hand is this - it seems something is odd with your battles if you are getting that low of kill rates in the current mod version. It could be a few things - 1) battle difficulty level? 2) bad install (reverify your game cache) 3) mod conflict (try without ancient empires) 4) wrong mod version. I would recommend checking those and then going into a custom battle and trying your battle scenario and see what happens.

Nope.

Yep.

Edit- one syllable stand off?

[TheLastRonin]

No one asked you to worship us. But, sometimes we run across an attitude of expectation and entitlement that can get quite old after awhile. We aren't leaders of a country or even paid help. We are modders who have decided to, in our own free time and with no payment, make a mod for other's enjoyment. On top of that, we try to be as interactive and responsive to the community as possible on a daily basis. Regularly, we answer the exact same questions repeatedly day in and day out. I spend about 2-3 hours a day just answering Steam, TWC, PMs, helping others, etc. It gets to where I barely find time to mod many days. And this is a "hobby" ?

I am a bit tired of reading people accusing us of only wanting praise or demanding worship. First, if you read around we respond to many issues/criticism and try to help figure out the source. Many times its not the mod itself, even, but we still help. Second, we don't owe anyone anything at all. The very fact that people come to expect us to respond to every comment and post is a testament to just how much this mod team does give back.

Anyway, the issue at hand is this - it seems something is odd with your battles if you are getting that low of kill rates in the current mod version. It could be a few things - 1) battle difficulty level? 2) bad install (reverify your game cache) 3) mod conflict (try without ancient empires) 4) wrong mod version. I would recommend checking those and then going into a custom battle and trying your battle scenario and see what happens.




Edit- one syllable stand off?

There seems to have been a serious miscommunication here. I have not and wouldn't accuse you of only wanting praise or worship, you've only provided decent responses to the thread which I greatly appreciate. I started the thread to provide some honest feedback, not to crap on you guys.

I was simply responding to dahooscarl's blatant fanboying which has now dissolved into trolling my thread with one word responses. If I was admonishing anyone it was him. There seems to be this phenomenon which occurs in life (but especially on the internet) that if certain people are a fan of someone then that person can do no wrong. I'm personally not a fan of such blind tribalism... I think modders are people, they deserve respect for what they do but that doesn't mean they can't make mistakes or be disagreed with.

I have since verified my cache and disabled AE and it seems to have helped although I still stand by my original point that the AI cannot handle simple player tactics and that the changes further damage its ability to cope with the battlescape. It seems that at least some other people agree as they have left +reputation comments agreeing with my post even if they for some reason have not left comments in the thread itself.