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  1. #1
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Ok. I need help

    Ok, I need help.


    Firstly, this is a great mod. I'm a vet TW player since Rome 1 but this mod has actually got the better of me.

    I have been playing a Rome campaign on hard. The year is 245 BC, and things are going to hell. My main problem is that my economy can only support one full stack. I am at war with Carthage who seem to have unlimited troops, and also one of the Gallic tribes has been at war with me on and off since the beginning. So a single stack has spent 100 turns rushing all over Italy trying to beat of attack after attack. However now I am being attacked by multiple armies in multiple places.

    My early gains against Carthage (Corsica and Sardinia) are about to be lost, and I cannot muster enough troops to seize the initiative, ever!

    I tried to concentrate on the economy early game, so what am I doing wrong?

    Also I'm having real issues with squalor, bur the whole sanitation building tech-tree is unavailable. Has it been removed from the mod or is this a bug? I have researched the appropriate tech.

    It's nice to have a challenge for a change, but this is insane. I just can't see how to survive let alone progress and expand with such limitations.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    I am played the Rome on very hard and I have 3 full stack army and 1 half stack fleet even though I only have Cisapline, Corsica et Sardinia, Italy and whole Magna Greacia with a robust economy and low tax.

    First of dont start wars in two front. Focus on one enemy at a time.
    I suggest in early game just focus on economy and wait until Syrakousai attack Lilybaion. Then you can rush and take they two settlements from Syrakousai without be in a endless war with Carthage.

    Do you use the industry building? They are useless in Italy and Magna Greacia and only give you a huge squalor. I do not fight with squalor problems even though I do not have the sanitation building.
    You can use this building guide for build your startprovinces optimally:
    Quote Originally Posted by wrcromartie View Post
    Province Build Suggestions:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Was going to wait until I had really min/maxed to post anything but figured this was going pretty well - this is where I have my game in turn 150, with a few slots still to unlock in most regions.

    Italia -

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Currently ~9683 wealth income, + 40 PO, food -30. Stable easy core province build for Italy that can still field great numbers of troops and also has more than 2.5x income of almost any foreign region I've found in the world.

    Level 10 dignitary

    Roma -
    Trade Municipium
    Manipular Barracks (can be removed for more $)
    Wine Trader lvl 3
    Slave Trader

    Ariminum-
    Lvl 3 town
    Lvl 3 trading port
    LVL 3 temple o mercury
    Lvl 3 farm (can swap out when you have substantial enough food for more $, I kept for a while as a hedge)

    Arretium-
    Lvl 3 town
    Lvl 3 temple o mercury
    Lvl 3 temple o neptune

    Neapolis-
    Lvl 3 town
    Lvl 3 port
    Lvl 3 temple o mercury

    Slaves are currently at 75%, but economic effect is up to 122% because of bonus from buildings, characters, etc.



    Magna Graecia

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I have just reunited in my 2nd Punic War, have been using for food production. [will wait a few turns for conversions to complete and repost stats]
    +21 food, 3724 income, -4 PO

    Brundisium -
    Lvl 3 Trade
    Lvl 3 Fish port
    Lvl 3 Nymph Grove
    Lvl 3 Deli
    Lvl 2 Latrines (until unlock final slot)

    Consentia-
    Lvl 2 Grove
    Lvl 2 farm

    Lilybaeum-
    Lvl 3 fish
    Lvl 2 farm
    Lvl 3 nymph temple (I left this as the carthage stadia)

    Syracusae-
    Lvl 3 fish
    Lvl 3 farm
    Lvl 2 cows







    Faction Specific Grand Strategy:



    Roma:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Early Game:

    Rome starts with probably the strongest position in the early game, and your main weakness is probably your over-eagerness to get on with the whole Rome-takes-over the world thing. As stated earlier, the best advice (in my opinion) is to wait at least a few turns before going straight to war.

    **this is in contrast to vanilla Rome2, where its easy to immediately blitzkrieg with whatever scraps you get at the start turn and continue to snowball until credits roll**

    #1 once you have a little war chest, Cisaplina is always #1 on my list of war targets & little needs to be said about it other than take them over in whatever order seems easiest at the time. I typically like to wait until one of the cisalpina factions inevitably leaves their city undefended and take a free city win to start things off. Early on, public order and managing new territories will be an adjustment, so if you can wait a few turns between declaring war, that's great.

    #2 you basically need to decide if you are going to continue north & take raetia or move elsewhere. Cisalpina is very defensible, as one stack can basically cover the entrance to all three territories from the north - so leaving it alone is a perfectly fine option.

    Raetia is a nice candidate for an early set of client states, which should require a time commitment of ~5-10 turns to completely subdue.

    #2a if you'd prefer to take other easy options, Provincia is a nice option, but you may find yourself dragged into conflict with Arveni and co, which can prove messier than desired early on.

    Illyria is another option, but you will be rubbing up against the Greeks early and that may cramp you in the midgame. I'd prefer to maintain my distance until I'm strong enough to sweep all the way from the Illyrian coast to Athens.

    #2b you can go after Syracuse, but be aware this will immediately accelerate your conflict with Carthage. This can definitely make for a fun and interesting campaign, but it will not be the easiest route to go.
    #3 Eventually you will


    In my current game, the Arverni sacked Massilia while I was deciding which way to go at #2. As the Romans, you can't allow barbarians to be knocking off your civilized neighbors and camping at your doorstep, so that made my decision fairly simple. Provincia immediately became the newest Roman conquest, and I spent the next several turns beating down the Arverni, Pictones, and Aedui. Upon request, I settled for peace + tribute from the Aedui basically right away and used the advantage to force the other 2 into submission, keeping a little hunk of Aquitania as my insurance. My client states have been appropriately keeping the peace in my little province since, putting down the periodic rebellions as per my instructions.

    With my northern borders relatively secure, I decided to try to take as much of Iberia as possible before confronting the quickly expanding Carthage.



    Mid Game:

    Late Game:


    Auxiliary's:

    Keltohellenikoi Thorakitai (say that 5x fast) - very tough, better melee attack and charge than Principes although not quite as good in extended fights. These can be had early on with an Aux camp in Cisalpinia.

    Massilian Hoplites - A Hoplite Phalanx Front + Center means your center is very very tough to move. I found hoplites to be a great compliment to my legions - acting as the anvil. These guys can buy you a TON of time to maneuver and rotate fresh units in and out around them while your enemy tires.

    White Shield Pikemen - Legions with pikemen you say? Yes please! I use these the same way as hoplites - these just make for a very, very tough center of my manipular formation...only my center has no gaps and has 25 foot teeth. Legions flank the pikemen and javelin throwers go in front, always keep your pikes moving forward until they hit the enemy center mass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard III View Post
    Hi Drowsy.

    Just a couple of things; I'm no expert by any means. Just saw your question and hoped I could add to the spreading of ideas this thread is doing such a good job at. Also, I play my campaign at least moderately realistic. Among other things, I don't min/max provinces. Aside from the AI not being able to do it, it's not realistic from a role-play perspective. That being said, on to the meat and potatoes!

    I assign each province two tasks - a primary and secondary one. These tasks can be as general as food production or military production, or as specific as Livestock, Culture, Mining, etc. I also, in some ways, integrate what the Roman Republic/Empire actually did gain from holding that specific province. Admittedly it's just from reading Wikipedia articles on the provinces, but it helps me immerse just a tad more.

    Italia: Military/Culture. Obviously, I train both my Legionaries and Auxiliary Legionaries here. It also contain a military training field (The one that adds +Experience, specifically) as well as a temple to Mars. The Culture focus is a great way to make cash, allows you to build one of the Epic Public building Chains, and you can build the Lvl 4 Entertainment centers in minor towns as well (Which, in my opinion, have a great Food/Income ratio. Maybe even TOO good, Dresden). Round out with Farms in the beginning (representing a rural italia), and then as your empire expands (And subsequently, you can build more farms/herding grounds/fishing ports) I could knock them down and replace them with something else. (Yes, I know it's not cost efficient, but it slows the game down!)

    Magna Graecia: Trade/Farmland. With Ports in 3 towns, this province seems built to send ships 'round the world. So trade is the choice here. Farmland also provides your first real breadbasket province. Picking farmland as a 'specialization' instead of simply 'food production' not only allows you to build cool buildings (Like a granary, or water tank), but also helps me remember that Brundisium will get the Major City Dock Military Chain (Can't remember the name ), and Syracuse will get the other military one - instead of fishing ports. Not only was Brundisium a major military port (Though MUCH later in the empire, if memory serves), it gives you a major naval base of operations on the side where you have a lot of ocean!

    Cisalpina: Slavery/military. I picked slavery to simulate this province being an obvious spot where barbarians as far west as spain, to as far north as the Nervii and Suebi, would funnel into Italia to become slaves or Gladiators. This makes it an ideal industrial province, that is often the 2nd or 3rd highest income province (Rome being 1st, always). The Military specialization usually includes building a military training field (I have the mod that enables building it in minor towns. This specific choice is combat posts) as well as an auxiliary barracks. This breeds some fierce barbarians who are romanized! Patavium usually gets a mine (A shout out to the original Rome total war, I could swear you could build a gold mine there). Genua will get the Stone quarry. More Industry income, plus increase in % earned from slaves? Yes Please!

    Corsica Et Sardinia: Food/Commerce. Admittedly, the isles never are a terribly high priority for me. I capture them (Or try to) near their historical conquering date, so usually my focus is on mainland province development. Historically though, it was a major grain supply for Caesar. So it gets farms, and fishing ports. Later in game, Karalis willy usually have it's fisherman's wharf converted to a trade port.


    You might've been able to tell, but this is just one mini "Group" in a larger layout of the Roman Empire. I hope this wasn't a bore to read... I'd happy to share more if anyone had interest!
    I hope it helps

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Also what units are you using? My first two armies are usually cheaper than my late ones. For example in my current Epirus campaign, I have been using levy pikemen vs regular pikemen until I can get on better footing. Levy slingers and javs instead of Rhodian slingers and peltasts. I have only my general and my elephants (which cost a crap ton but trying to play realistic).

    Hastati can hold the line very very well. No need for Lots of Principes early game. As Rome, I only use on 1-2 cavalry per army vs 4-5 in other armies. This helps with upkeep. Any Roman sword infantry should destroy Carthiginian/Libyan hoplites. Just let them poke you for a bit while you flank. Find some light spears to protect flanks against cavalry. Once cavalry is engaged, move around the flank.

    Hope this helps.

  4. #4
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB206 View Post
    Also what units are you using? My first two armies are usually cheaper than my late ones. For example in my current Epirus campaign, I have been using levy pikemen vs regular pikemen until I can get on better footing. Levy slingers and javs instead of Rhodian slingers and peltasts. I have only my general and my elephants (which cost a crap ton but trying to play realistic).

    Hastati can hold the line very very well. No need for Lots of Principes early game. As Rome, I only use on 1-2 cavalry per army vs 4-5 in other armies. This helps with upkeep. Any Roman sword infantry should destroy Carthiginian/Libyan hoplites. Just let them poke you for a bit while you flank. Find some light spears to protect flanks against cavalry. Once cavalry is engaged, move around the flank.

    Hope this helps.
    Troops have been expensive, as I keep having to raise emergency mercs to meet sudden threats. Of course I am desperate for peace with my enemies so I can concentrate against one of them. I have been stuck on a two front war for pretty much the entire campaign.

    Winning battles is not the problem, it's more the economy side of things.

    Also any feedback on the sanitation buildings? ARe they removed from the mod or just "missing?"

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB206 View Post
    Also what units are you using? My first two armies are usually cheaper than my late ones. For example in my current Epirus campaign, I have been using levy pikemen vs regular pikemen until I can get on better footing. Levy slingers and javs instead of Rhodian slingers and peltasts. I have only my general and my elephants (which cost a crap ton but trying to play realistic).

    Hastati can hold the line very very well. No need for Lots of Principes early game. As Rome, I only use on 1-2 cavalry per army vs 4-5 in other armies. This helps with upkeep. Any Roman sword infantry should destroy Carthiginian/Libyan hoplites. Just let them poke you for a bit while you flank. Find some light spears to protect flanks against cavalry. Once cavalry is engaged, move around the flank.

    Hope this helps.
    I have to disagree, I find hastati to be rather lackluster as a front line unit. I prefer them as flankers to my principes.

  6. #6
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Quote Originally Posted by dahooscarl View Post
    I have to disagree, I find hastati to be rather lackluster as a front line unit. I prefer them as flankers to my principes.
    I found early hastati to be quite poor, but late hastati to be much more sturdy.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Check building tech , sanitation buildings allowance is in tier 1 .
    Make a push with extensive use of merc , that would help with the whole income thing. Also, as Rome, it won't be the case like in vanilla when you can have and maintain a stack of hastati ,just use 3-4 of them in an army in conjunction with milities or those "little bit cheeper" Socii.

  8. #8
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    I have been building standard armies with 4 hastati, 4 pricipes, 4 triarii, 4 equites, 2 velites.

    I realise now this has been a big mistake, when infantry forces predominately consisting of hastati would have been adequate. After 100 turns I must have wasted huge amounts of money on upkeep costs for expensive units. However I am going to fight to retrieve my current campaign before starting afresh.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Quote Originally Posted by Incontinenta Buttox View Post
    I have been building standard armies with 4 hastati, 4 pricipes, 4 triarii, 4 equites, 2 velites.

    I realise now this has been a big mistake, when infantry forces predominately consisting of hastati would have been adequate. After 100 turns I must have wasted huge amounts of money on upkeep costs for expensive units. However I am going to fight to retrieve my current campaign before starting afresh.
    Four triarii?
    That too much in upkeep and for someone you would never use. I would also keep equites down to 1 + general
    I did never used triarii in every battle - only when this did "rem ad Triarios redisse" or say on english they will be the last line infantry that would fight against enemies.
    When my economy is stable I usally go with 4 hastati, 4 pricipes, 2 triarii, 2 cavalry (include the general) and 2 velites. The last 6 slots are for merc, milities or socii and later auxiliaries too.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    I find quality infantry to be essential. Elite infantry can shred large numbers of levy troops with little losses. Thus, I prefer to have armies of say 6 princ + 4 triarii...supported by very cheap support units (slingers or cheap archers or cheap javcav). The only time I use levy infantry is when I need a cheap defensive support legion (say 10 men or so to sit near cities and win defensive battles).

  11. #11
    ostendadler's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    allied troops and levies are also cheaper and can take the brunt of the attack while your roman units can flank or operate to drain the enemy. I feel your struggle. I don't know what family you picked but I would recommend to go down the diplomatic path to try and get carthages enemy to attack them (spain perhaps).

    In hard the AI receives a big buff in money so you can expect a steady stream of stacks your way which means a long grooling war. (partly why I stopped playing hard and keep on medium with half stacks).

    10% elite 30% average 50% levies 10% archers is a good mix. Brundisium also offers some decend spear units to fix your frontline.
    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

    "If only all of Rome had just one neck."

    "Everytime you pre-order a game, god kills a kitten"


  12. #12

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Quote Originally Posted by ostendadler View Post
    allied troops and levies are also cheaper and can take the brunt of the attack while your roman units can flank or operate to drain the enemy. I feel your struggle. I don't know what family you picked but I would recommend to go down the diplomatic path to try and get carthages enemy to attack them (spain perhaps).

    In hard the AI receives a big buff in money so you can expect a steady stream of stacks your way which means a long grooling war. (partly why I stopped playing hard and keep on medium with half stacks).

    10% elite 30% average 50% levies 10% archers is a good mix. Brundisium also offers some decend spear units to fix your frontline.
    Grueling.

    Italia gives you Campanian Hoplites who make tough, cheap and efficient spear unit. And Terusci Axemen make great flanking units. Their weapons make them ideal for tackling heavily armored units.

  13. #13
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    I found the sanitation buildings after all. Apparently they are only buildable in provincial capitals.

  14. #14
    Eldgrimr's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    The mod tends to be quite unbalanced when you use any difficulty above normal. Normal is basically the most realistic setting.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieZleeping View Post
    The mod tends to be quite unbalanced when you use any difficulty above normal. Normal is basically the most realistic setting.
    I don't agree. I had a lot of free time lately and had chance to play many hours. I had a super easy campaign with Sparta on Hard/Hard. Later I played HATG campaign as Carthage on VH/H and overall it was no challenge there. Later I played CIG campaign on VH/VH and it was ok challenge at the beginning but too easy later in the game. Now I play as Hayasdan on Legendary, this is good challenge mostly because AI can attack you next turn after they sign non agression pact with you or attack you when you think you are in good relation with specific faction but AI sees good chance to use a moment against you. And I like it a lot actually. I think legendary is very fair difficulty because it Almost does not allow you to cheat against AI by reloading the game, so it's only then when you can measure how smart AI is. We tend to underrate this loading/reloading. Sadly as veteran player I still can see when AI can really hurt me in 2-3 steps forward. In IA campaign Parthia would send all of their own troops at me plus armies of it's satrapies. I had to win many heroic battles to be able to counter them before they would come at me again. Still rules ofwinning did not change for me, since I got 3-4 professional armies - sooner or later it's game over for AI.
    Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that AI somehow is a little bit smarter on higher difficulties, I was really surprised how AI was able to disengage from current fight to chase off my some of my weaker flanking units, I was like wow, this looks intelligent indeed lol

    Sorry for off topic.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    If you are having trouble holding up front lines I suggest splitting your army into 2: 6-8 Roman heavy infantry stack and close to full auxilla stack.

    Try to equip each auxillia with counters to the specific enemy on your front line: more spears if the faction is cav based (gaul, parthia), javs against elephants etc.

    Try to go cheap on these and add up to the Imperial Legion stack when you can afford. I always try to keep +1000 at least as upkeep to avoid sudden trade agreement breaking, seasons, disasters etc.


    Always use auxillia as firsr wave, keep your main legion in good shape and soon you will have siler chevron legionnaires from hell

  17. #17

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Campaign difficulty is actually better to be Hard probably (or very hard for veterans). Battle difficulty is always recommended normal because it doesn't make the AI smarter, it just changes their stats. But of very experienced players they may prefer that higher too.

    @Vardano I imagine you are a veteran player so campaigns that are "easy" to you won't be easy to everyone. I recommend trying out the hardcore submod

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  18. #18

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post

    @Vardano I imagine you are a veteran player so campaigns that are "easy" to you won't be easy to everyone. I recommend trying out the hardcore submod
    It's what I want to do after ending my current campaign, but from the description of the mod I don't like 2 things:
    Doubled building times
    Tech times doubled

    Not sure I want to wait it for so long, but other than this it sound good to me. Dresden, do you think Hardcore Submod on Hard would be much bigger chalenge than Legendary of regular DEI?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    The hardcore submod cranks all the difficulty up in a lot of areas.

    As much as I want a more difficult game, I disagree with the methods available to do so. Just buffing enemy unit stats is not an enjoyable form of difficulty increase to me.

    Can I beat battles on legendary? Easily. Campaigns? Easily.

    But that doesn't make it fun. So what I tend to do is give myself role play handicaps to let the ai present a better challenge. Rather than inflating the difficulty artificially with stat increases.

    Some people enjoy the difficulty increased through statistical means though. Each player has their own way of playing, and that is something that submods and setting changes are always good for.

    It is just unfortunate that the AI itself can't be made more competent.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Ok. I need help

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    The hardcore submod cranks all the difficulty up in a lot of areas.

    As much as I want a more difficult game, I disagree with the methods available to do so. Just buffing enemy unit stats is not an enjoyable form of difficulty increase to me.

    Can I beat battles on legendary? Easily. Campaigns? Easily.

    But that doesn't make it fun. So what I tend to do is give myself role play handicaps to let the ai present a better challenge. Rather than inflating the difficulty artificially with stat increases.

    Some people enjoy the difficulty increased through statistical means though. Each player has their own way of playing, and that is something that submods and setting changes are always good for.

    It is just unfortunate that the AI itself can't be made more competent.

    I agree on this, artificial buffs are kind of things I never liked at all and it takes off immersion too, but still it's bit more of challenge when AI is more agressive or when ally can backstab you, it does not happen on lower settings, when you just exactly know what it's gonna do, as idea I think factions should really behave as who they are, if it says that some faction is unreliable they should not always keep alliances till the end and put themselves in disadvantage. I think you guys have a very good idea for 1.2 about late game challenge, I remember I had idea like that too, that should be interesting update.

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