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Thread: Renaming citizenship types

  1. #1
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Renaming citizenship types



    Pretty self-explanatory. I think that having one of the types of citizenship being named as its broader category can lead to confussion, specially for new users, so I believe a better name should be assigned to the citizenship type called "citizen".

    Since 2 out of 3 categories are in latin, I guess it would be a natural choice to give it a latin name as well. I'm by no means an expert, but after googling a bit, I believe "cīvis" could be a candidate, and has a nice ring to it. In the other hand, both "civis" and "civitate" are closely related to "citizen", which would cause a confussion problem I'm trying to solve in the first hand (we would have 2 types of "citizen" named with latin words which both mean "citizen"), and although almost no one is going get picky about latin names, since we are on it, we could probably find more suitable names. As far as I'm concerned "civis" means citizen and "civitas" citizenry, so I'm assuming that civis (citizen) and civitate (a member of the citizenry) are pretty much the same, and therefore are not ideal as distinctive names. I've got nothing against "Artifex", though.


    So, some possibilities (feel free to add as may as you want):

    CITIZENRY (latin "civitas"), the sum of all members with the rank of CITIZEN (latin "cīvis"/"civitate"):

    • Those who have contributed through modding: ARTIFEX
    • Those who have contributed through debating and writing: ORATOR (english: orator); SCRIPTOR (english: writer); DICENS (english: speaker); RELĀTOR (english: storyteller), DĒLĪBERĀTOR (thinker), SCHOLARIS (english: scholar, credit to Iskar)
    • Those who have contributed in other ways, or wish to identify with neither or both: DĪGNUS (englis: worthy -adj-); LAUDĀTUS (english: lauded/commended, maybe conflicts with awads/"awardee"), MELĬOR (english: valuable/better -adj.comp. | could sound a bit elitist-)



    Would probably need someone who actually has a clue of latin to make better suggestions (and lay my latin flat ). Artifex + Orator/Relātor (current civitate) + Laudatus/Cīvis (current citizen) sound fine to me though.

    What do you think? Any ideas?
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; March 18, 2016 at 12:02 AM.

  2. #2
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    The 'can cause confusion - especially to new users' is the poorest argument for anything and has been shot down time and time again. The site has been going for many years and anyone really interested will pick up the names/positions pretty quickly.

    So I see change for change sake, nothing more. Sorry to be so blunt. Seen this subject so many times before. If you had a good reason I'd be open to it, but you haven't.

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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Well we could have Scriptor for those who get it via staff work, writing stuff and otherwise helping the site in a direct manner, artifex for those who get it through modding and civitate for those who get it via discussions (debating and stuff)
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    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    The 'can cause confusion - especially to new users' is the poorest argument for anything and has been shot down time and time again.
    This is definately not a priority, but it would, in my humble opinion, be an unquestionable improvement that will cost us very little to implement. In any case, can't think of a better argument than the image.


    The site has been going for many years and anyone really interested will pick up the names/positions pretty quickly.
    Not a reason to stick to a terminology that is definately not ideal and easily improvable. As stated in the op, the image was pretty explanatory of the obvious flaw in the current system.



    If you had a good reason I'd be open to it, but you haven't.
    Could go on and on with metaphysical ramblings and other arguments (such as "why are artifexes expected to have an higher standard of behaviour just for having made a great mod?", "do we really need three separate categories?", "what's the meaning of citizenship?"...), but honestly, it would be unnecessarily overcomplicating a what in essence is a really simple quality of life change.
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; March 17, 2016 at 08:55 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    If I had dictatorial power of the names and badges, I would replace Citizen with Civis and Civitate with Scholaris and call all three "Citizens" as a category.

    However, any kind of change in terminology would require new badges, some people would want to keep their old badges, and while I personally am always in favour of Latin I understand that it puts many people off, so having one standard group labeled in English as Citizen and two specified groups labeled in Latin seems like a fine compromise.

    Summa summarum (ha! Latin again) I'd just leave it as it is. It would not be worth the hassle.
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    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    We could always let members decide. It's expected that some would prefer the old (current) ones, but if there is a majority of people who don't, wouldn't it be fairer to accomodate the will of the plurality?

    As for the latin/english thing, you still have the english "citizen" permission tag under the badge, and we could always design something with the english name included in the badge, in the lines of:

    (did this in 5 mins, don't be judgy, it's just to illustrate the argument ^^)



    In any case, I guess most people prefer one option or the other merely based on the "cool" factor, so we could do the change alonside some super-duper, awesome-looking new badges.

    Scholaris sounds good too, did not find that one. More convenient and explanatory for its category, in my opinion.
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; March 17, 2016 at 09:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    I see the two badges as like the Large Awards
    Artifex= Opifex
    Citivates= Phalera
    Citizen is a catch all generic title for those who have non- specific contribution. (e.g. a little modding and a little content/ debating).

    Sciprtor would be a poor choice because it can be confused with modding. (see below)
    Civitates also have a long history with TWC and it has been strongly associated with debating; however, as indicated above, it can also be anything content related.

    If, however, you want to distinguish people involved with content with debaters, I would not object to the creation of a unique badge and name. To avoud confusion and to be consistent, I would go with Auctrix (Author/ Historian,... according to google)
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    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    I see the two badges as like the Large Awards
    Artifex= Opifex
    Citivates= Phalera
    Citizen is a catch all generic title for those who have non- specific contribution. (e.g. a little modding and a little content/ debating).
    That's interesting, although it's ultimately the choice of the member, not an award given by a third party. For instance, nothing would have stopped me from choosing Civitate instead of Citizen (and it would have actually made more sense taking into account the posts which I believe triggered my citizenship proccess), would then civitate have an higher value than citizen? That would effectively create different values for different types of citizenship, which I believe is not something we want to pursue.


    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I would go with Auctrix (Author/ Historian,... according to google)
    I actually considered "auctor", but disregarded it because, after all, all citizenship ranks imply authorship (a modder is the author of a mod, etc.). It also appeared defined as "seller/vendor" and "founder", which might not be ideal. I believe Auctrix is the feminine version (which by the way got me thinking that maybe we should try to use neutral names).

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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Well, in a technical sense, Civitates and Artifex is the only two we really need. If two large awards suits exceptional contribution, then so true for smaller awards.
    Then again, some people equally contribute in both areas. I have patronize members who would fit perfectly into that category and when I was first patronize I contributed in both areas as well. I would be in favor of a term that would celebrate that type of member and leave the "concept of citizens" to mean all three. However, my Latin appears to be much poorer than yours, and yours isn't that much better I am guessing. I think this would be a nice route to go. I think if we start to define specific areas, like content, where do we stop. What about historical writers, role- playing and other gaming contribution. I think we open up a can worms here. I ran into this problem some time ago when I suggested it. Though matter what you do there is always that "Divergent" guy that screws up the whole deal.
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Well, that would be a different discussion, if it were up to me I'd just reduce citizenship to a single rank for any kind of mature contributors, granting them the badge, the ability to vote and access to the Curia (if it remains private), and then recognize all those specific areas (modding, writing, gaming, etc) with specific awards, but since that proposal would most likely be quite unpopular (I guess people find cooler to have "Artifex" written in their badges than "Citizen", although "cīvis" might be fun enough for an universal badge), I'll limit my suggestion to improving the current system, so the first goal would removing the redundancy of having citizen be a type of citizen and then maybe finding more suitable names for each cathegory.

    That's what I meant in my reply to Halie with keeping this simple. If still you guys are up to discussing the nature of the citizen rank, I'll be happy to continue that (most likely with exactly the same argument as above).

  11. #11
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    if it were up to me I'd just reduce citizenship to a single rank for any kind of mature contributors
    This is actually already just the case.
    Even if folks tends to forget about it or ignore it, the only thing that exists is Citizenship as Citizen.
    "Artifex" and "Civitiate", and whatever else badges people want to invent, is only makeup, a feather in the hat, or in strict terms, a badge of choice with no technical or legal relevans attached.

    Whatever an application says, and whatever people like to believe, they never vote for a member to become a Artifex or a Civitiate, only Citizen.
    It's merely convinient in an application to by the lable make examinators aware of what kind of contributions the member is meant to be evaluated on.
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 18, 2016 at 01:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Actually, Both Squid and I proposed two variation of the idea you described above. There wasn't a lot of "opposition" expressed, but there was a strong indifference to move on either ideas.
    However, if it were to get any serious consideration, the impression I am given is that they would be strong opposition by those that display either badges. The path of least resistance would be to come up with title that fits someone who contributes equally to both areas.

    Going back to my proposal, I wanted to introduce intermediate awards. People stated this would be overkill or redundant. Plus, they argued that the large awards standards are too high and that they may be more people eligible. I may well be. I did envisioned the awards awarded in more specific areas and then maintain or elevate the two large awards. I would also rather not devalue the large awards. Whatever standard is set should remain. In either case, is there enough "room" between citizenship and the large award for a medium award? I think there is... I am certain if there was an medium ward for debating, they would quite a few candidates. I would venture to guess Artifex as well.
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    @Higo: I would caution against anything that requires new usergroups. As far as I understood Squid, we've got too many of those anyway. A simple rename and redesign, might be feasible, but Civitate and Artifex seem to have quite a long tradition on TWC so people are emotionally attached to them. Keeping an English-labeled generic category badge (Citizen) is also sensible. Hence I don't think we should spend our time and energy on this for the time being and rather engage in more productive projects.
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    The only possible improvement would be to make just one single category/badge for citizenship (citizen that's it), which will make things easier and clearer for sure; any other solution would just be word play / role play.

    Have to agree with Halie here
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    @Higo: I would caution against anything that requires new usergroups.
    If you are talking about the "one group to rule them all" thing, why would it require new usergroups? We would just need the one "citizen" permission group we have now, it would just delete the Artifex and Civitate options.

    In any case, that was not my starting proposal/idea, we've got a bit derailed I was just talking about changing the names.


    A simple rename and redesign, might be feasible, but Civitate and Artifex seem to have quite a long tradition on TWC so people are emotionally attached to them.
    Again, there would be no better way to confirm that than asking them Also, in similar lines people are emotionally attached to the citizen-only Curia or the Triumvirate, and I believe our stand is different on that matter.

    In any case, Artifex would not require a change, and I bet that if we find a cool enough name, people would forget about Civitate (Your own scholaris sounds already better to me, and I'm sure there are other fun options).


    Hence I don't think we should spend our time and energy on this for the time being and rather engage in more productive projects.
    Well, notice I just started this as a regular discussion and not a serious proposal, as stated in my reply to Haile, I don't see this a priority at all, and I agree about the "more productive" projects, but as far as this does not steal protagonism and effort from those, I see no harm in the discussion, and the discussion is certainly not being time-consuming at all (and we have something else fun to talk about in the Curia main )



    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn
    make just one single category/badge for citizenship (citizen that's it)
    That's exactly how I feel about citizenship, but as stated above, that would be a different discussion (and one I chose not to include here knowing people would be reticent from letting their shiny "xXxArtifexXxX" badges go )


    any other solution would just be word play
    Yep, but it would still make things clearer. As I see it, as simple and untrascendental as this is, it would be an obvious improvement with little to no consequence. So yes, a minor detail, but when something has several pros and no cons, why not just do it? In any case, if most of you agree that this is not a good idea, I'll not insist. Still, an interesting debate

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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Fair points, Higo

    As for the emotional attachment: Citizen badge names are of little effect on the functionality or efficiency of the Curia, in contrast to the other proposals you mentioned. Emotionally attached people will be against both, but we can give them concessions on this "meaningless" issue to appease them on the more effectful ones.
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    I'm with Halie on this one. Also, if the goal is to reduce "confusion" changing the names to even more obscure Latin ones isn't going to help.

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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthFox View Post
    I'm with Halie on this one. Also, if the goal is to reduce "confusion" changing the names to even more obscure Latin ones isn't going to help.
    Latin is not a requirement. If you guys have a better name suggestion for that, even if in english, I'm fine with it. Almost everything would be less confusing than keeping the citizen->citizen thing (that is, if three categories are kept).

    In any case, changing the citizen category to latin would not be more confusing, would at worst be equally as confusing as the current system (since we already have two categories in latin), and in my opinion not having the group and one of its categories to be named identically would already be an obvious improvement. The only issue I contemplate with that is the "english" argument raised by Iskar, and I still think it's not so severe given that whatever the case we'd still have the english written "citizen" permission tag below the badge. And in any case, if people's tastes and attachments are the issue, there is no better way to check and solve it than asking them with a poll.


    By the way, I have no attachment whatsoever to latin, if I suggested a latin name is because I imagine there are some other people who do, and therefore having all categories named with the same "coding" makes sense. If you guys think we'd be better with all names written in english, I have nothing against that. I guess it ultimately comes to people wanting a "cool sounding" title in their badges (to which latin probably contributes). In that regard, I doubt there is a lot of people attached to the name "citizen".
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; March 18, 2016 at 10:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Hmm, interesting concept. I like Artifex it should stay. Civis and Civitate are pretty much interchangeable. For the new Civitate title, how about venerabilis or honoratus . Both words can mean "worthy" or "esteemed."

    EDIT:
    Or how about we use Greek, not that I'm biased or anything hehe..

    Citizen- "politis"

    Civitate-"retoras" or "logios"

    Artifex- "technitis"
    Last edited by Nikos; March 18, 2016 at 11:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Renaming citizenship types

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Actually, Both Squid and I proposed two variation of the idea you described above. There wasn't a lot of "opposition" expressed, but there was a strong indifference to move on either ideas.
    However, if it were to get any serious consideration, the impression I am given is that they would be strong opposition by those that display either badges. The path of least resistance would be to come up with title that fits someone who contributes equally to both areas.
    Oh don't kid yourself there was lots of strong opposition the last time I made a suggestion to change the badges.
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