Mercenaries

[adun12345]

I would be against allowing powerful late-game faction units to be recruited by other factions as mercenaries, even for "alternative lore" scenarios (like Isengard conquering Harad). I think that the availability of units like trolls or mumakil as mercenaries would lessen faction distinctiveness by making every faction play too similarly. If there are specific "alternative lore" scenarios that people would like to explore (i.e., if Umbar conquers Harad, can they train Mumakil?), then I think this would be better handled by an AOR recruitment system on a faction-by-faction basis. That way, certain factions would be able to recruit certain alternative units in certain areas, but not via a regional mercenary available to *all* factions. On the trolls for Isengard point, I think it could go either way; after all, Saruman is able to command and manipulate orcs and wargs in his armies, so it doesn't seem a huge stretch to suggest that he might get trolls on his side, too. That said, I think there's a strong mechanical reason to deny Isengard trolls, if only to make it play differently from other evil factions (in TATW, I always liked that Isengard played more like a good faction than an evil one).

When it comes to using mercenaries to model allied interaction (i.e., Rohan's aid to Gondor, Harad's aid to Mordor), remember that the Attila engine actually does a pretty good job of getting allies to coordinate with each other (at least, compared to previous total war titles). If you're playing as Gondor, and Mordor is moving into the Pelannor fields, you can set one of Mordor's armies as a war coordination target, and Rohan will probably come and help you; at least, I've had pretty good luck with war coordination in vanilla Attila campaigns. Similarly, the computer actually does a pretty good job of coordinating multiple allied factions in combat (i.e., Sassanid vassal spam stacks in vanilla), so I think that you'd see Mordor/Harad/Rhun coordinated attacks without having to give Mordor many extra Harad and Rhun recruitment options. Just a thought.

BTW - just thought I'd point out that R2 and Attila allow for both "regional" mercenaries (available to all factions in a specific region) and "factional" mercenaries (available to a specific faction just about anywhere). R2 used factional mercenaries to portray how mercenary societies like Carthage operated, by giving them extra recruitment options from diverse regions. Aside from regional mercenary hires, perhaps factional mercenaries could be employed by certain factions as a regular recruitment source (like Carthage from R2)? Not exactly sure how to make this mechanic fit the lore (Umbar, maybe?), but a "mercenary" faction would be pretty cool from a mechanical perspective. Maybe the dwarves could recruit their higher-level troops primarily from factional mercenaries (with a low replenishment rate), to represent their very small population; that way, no matter how many settlements you capture, you're still limited to relatively small numbers of higher-level troops. Or something like that.

[Dude with the Food]

That doesn't answer anything.


1. Yes, but still you didn't answer how Sauron or Saruman were capable of collecting such vast armies and legions without the aid of ring?

2. What I say is, if Saruman has an art/persuasion/power (or anything you name it) to collect such evil legions, why we are surprised if he can call trolls to his army too? If Peter Jackson decided to put them, then we wouldn't speak all these probably?
3. Even I saw resistance about presence of trolls in armies of Misty Mountain and Gundabad here, then when we have movie Hobbit example, then we come to the start again "one ring is necessary"

So I really don't understand many people here. I am not talking to you only Dude, don't understand me wrong, but I am not satisfied with the community here who seem to be deciding on many core facts.


4. "there isn't really a precedent"??? What about Helm's Deep, the aid sent by Loth Lorien? (Other examples: Minas Tirith as Rohan, Mirkwood with collaboration between Loth Lorien and Thranduil? Erebor: battle of five armies. Later, Dain dies in further skirmishes along with King Brand of Dale? Witchking of Angmar: Colloboration of forces between Rhudaur and Orcs against Elves and Dunedain etc.)

Thus there are many many precedents indeed.

About the aid sent by Loth Lorien in Helm's Deep, how they are supposed to help in Campaign, when player will witness dozens of scenes similar to Helm's Deep? When necessary, player should be able to recruit them near the border of Loth Lorien as mercenaries. I don't support the idea of teleportation of troops iike we see the army stacks in TATW, "just a small siege launches a big support from Elves, the army disbanded, 10 turns later a big Isengard army appears, no support from the elves."

Mercenaries can handle many things with an easier way, the unit pool can be arranged (or limited to certain amount of units when necessary), the upkeep can be fixed so the player can be forced to disband the units or keep them in army as auxiliary forces as an aid from certain factions too.

1. There is a large population of orcs that seem to be able to reproduce very quickly. Sauron has spent decades gathering orcs to Mordor while Saruman is strategically located close to some of the largest orc populations in Middle Earth (the Misty Mountains).


2. Firstly, trolls need a lot of resources devoted to keeping them pacified which Saruman doesn't really have. Owning the ring gives him the power necessary to exert more power over them mentally which makes it easier to control them.


3. Those trolls are probably captured and bred for war by the orcs of the mountains a we know trolls live there. Trolls are never mentioned as living in Isengard so it makes sense Saruman's armies don't have them. It's worth noting that trolls are never mentioned at the Battle of the Five Armies in the book.



4. There was only one Elf at the Battle of Helm's Deep and that was Legolas. Hardly anything to create mercenarues over. The other examples don't really fit either. Theoden led the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith - in game that would be Minas Tirith being under siege and there being a Rohan army being close enough to reinforce. Not at all Gondor recruiting 'mercenaries' to use for themselves. Theoden acted independently of Denethor.

Thranduil and Galadriel's collaboration was a combined war effort, not one of them renting out warriors to the other and while they coordinated, they weren't swapping armies for fun.

The Battle of the Five Armes was three independent armies happening to close enough to fight the orcs and wolves together. It most definitely was not Thorin seeing an army and deciding to borrow some men and elves for his army.

The men of Rhudaur were vassals of the Witch-King; that example is as useful as saying the Swan Knights of Dol Amroth fought alongside soldiers of Gondor.

About Dale and the Dwarves fighting together, that's just because Dale and Erebor are so close. Dain reinforced Brand and Thorin grants Bard II refuge. At no point are men of Dale fighting for the Dwarves or Dwarves fighting for the men of Dale. They each fight for themselves WITH (not for) each other.

The only example I can think of where an army of on faction is willingly under the command of another iat the Battle of the Morannon because Imrahil is de facto commander of Gondor and Eomer of Rohan but Aragorn takes full command. However, I think this would only feature as a part of a scripted Fellowship mission line.

[Farwest]

Think in terms of the lore and metaphysics, there you will find all you need.

We are (I am) talking about lore and physics, instead of metaphysics and still we are discussing I can't imagine what we would be discussing if we enter to metaphysics

[Farwest]

Sorry, I just saw second page,

@adun12345 Yes I would love to see Umbar as Mercenary Faction too, hiring mercenaries cheaper and relying on mercenaries rather than depending on its own units. But they should have a larger variety of ship roster too. This fits to their role, because there is not much knowledge about Umbar and what kind of units they would have normally. (We saw a hint of look of Umbar corsairs in Extended version of RoK, that's all).

Also in my suggestion, regional mercenaries are not available to all factions, but allegiances of both mercenaries and employer faction must meet too. (Beornings can only be hired by good factions that settle in their area, Trolls can be recruited by evil factions in Ettenmoors and similar.) But we are discussing here, whether Trolls and local Orc Looters/Raiders should be mercenaries to Evil Factions or not. (I think otherwise there won't be much mercenary units for Evil factions too, only some evil men or some generic mercenaries like we accustomed to see in usual TW games)

1. There is a large population of orcs that seem to be able to reproduce very quickly. Sauron has spent decades gathering orcs to Mordor while Saruman is strategically located close to some of the largest orc populations in Middle Earth (the Misty Mountains).

2. Firstly, trolls need a lot of resources devoted to keeping them pacified which Saruman doesn't really have. Owning the ring gives him the power necessary to exert more power over them mentally which makes it easier to control them.

3. Those trolls are probably captured and bred for war by the orcs of the mountains a we know trolls live there. Trolls are never mentioned as living in Isengard so it makes sense Saruman's armies don't have them. It's worth noting that trolls are never mentioned at the Battle of the Five Armies in the book.

4. There was only one Elf at the Battle of Helm's Deep and that was Legolas. Hardly anything to create mercenarues over. The other examples don't really fit either. Theoden led the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith - in game that would be Minas Tirith being under siege and there being a Rohan army being close enough to reinforce. Not at all Gondor recruiting 'mercenaries' to use for themselves. Theoden acted independently of Denethor.

Thranduil and Galadriel's collaboration was a combined war effort, not one of them renting out warriors to the other and while they coordinated, they weren't swapping armies for fun.

The Battle of the Five Armes was three independent armies happening to close enough to fight the orcs and wolves together. It most definitely was not Thorin seeing an army and deciding to borrow some men and elves for his army.

The men of Rhudaur were vassals of the Witch-King; that example is as useful as saying the Swan Knights of Dol Amroth fought alongside soldiers of Gondor.

About Dale and the Dwarves fighting together, that's just because Dale and Erebor are so close. Dain reinforced Brand and Thorin grants Bard II refuge. At no point are men of Dale fighting for the Dwarves or Dwarves fighting for the men of Dale. They each fight for themselves WITH (not for) each other.

The only example I can think of where an army of on faction is willingly under the command of another iat the Battle of the Morannon because Imrahil is de facto commander of Gondor and Eomer of Rohan but Aragorn takes full command. However, I think this would only feature as a part of a scripted Fellowship mission line.

1- I don't mean reproduction capability of orcs. I mean how Sauron and Saruman by himself, by their power, by their whatever quality were giving them facility to attract orcs to assemble in their armies? Why orcs come to knees of Saruman "Oh great Saruman, please put us inside your army, we can reproduce with human women, so we can breed Uruk-hai!" Orcs are needed to produce Uruk-hai initially, right? How Saruman called them, why they obeyed to Saruman? How wargs come to obey Saruman's call? Why same can not happen for Trolls? You understand my question better now I think, sorry if the question wasn't explicit.

2-

Firstly, trolls need a lot of resources devoted to keeping them pacified which Saruman doesn't really have.

How do you know that? What determines the resources whether they are necessary or not necessary enough to keep Trolls inside the army? They only need "meat" according to Tolkien. I think you are really blundering here.

3- Trolls are just living on the hillsides of the Misty Mountains, especially on ettenmoors and trollshaws. These are not distant places to Orthanc (Isengard) and Misty Mountains are starting right from Orthanc, all the way to the north then

4-

There was only one Elf at the Battle of Helm's Deep and that was Legolas. Hardly anything to create mercenarues over.

I think you didn't watch Two Towers, please watch it and let's talk again. I don't mean for you even to read the book, I both read and watched.
Alright, let's save you from watching, don't you remember the Elven Regiment commanded by Haldir sent as Aid by Loth Lorien? And Haldir dies sadly during the battle? Aren't they a precedent for you?
You said "Legolas was the only Elf in Helms Deep" this is completely wrong for anybody who watched the movies. That shows you don't remember the movie or you didn't watch at all but talking here.

But especially I didn't read rest of your message since you wrote "The other examples don't really fit either." We are just wasting our precious time, sorry. Because rest of your comments are completely not meaningful.

I won't be discussing anything about lore with you, because of last part of your messages particularly. You are truly not knowledgable about events of Middle Earth. For example, not Galadriel but her husband Celeborn went to Dol Guldur with Loth Lorien forces to eradicate evil in Mirkwood to assist Thranduil. But you are discussing Galadriel and Thranduil here without knowledge.

No need to tire ourselves with unnecessary debates. Leave the field to people who knows the things I am talking about. Sorry.

[Commissar Caligula_]

Can you guys just keep it civil? At the end of the day, it should be a Total War mod not Middle Earth reincarnated in all its iddy biddy details.
We've got to put all this stuff in the db tables, keep the realm of possibilities within the Attila engine.

[Bercor]

I think you didn't watch Two Towers, please watch it and let's talk again. I don't mean for you even to read the book, I both read and watched.
Alright, let's save you from watching, don't you remember the Elven Regiment commanded by Haldir sent as Aid by Loth Lorien? And Haldir dies sadly during the battle? Aren't they a precedent for you?
You said "Legolas was the only Elf in Helms Deep" this is completely wrong for anybody who watched the movies. That shows you don't remember the movie or you didn't watch at all but talking here.

Funny how you sell yourself as a Tolkien expert and apparently don't even know that the Elves in Helm's Deep are a Jackson's invention. In the book, as Dude correctly notes, the only Elf in Helm's Deep is Legolas. Saying he was the only Elf in Helm's Deep is completely wrong for anybody who watched the films, but completely correct for anybody who read the books.

"I don't mean for you even to read the book, I both read and watched." How condescending. Maybe it's time to re-read The Two Towers before accusing people of ignorance in lore matters?

[Alkar]

I would be against allowing powerful late-game faction units to be recruited by other factions as mercenaries, even for "alternative lore" scenarios (like Isengard conquering Harad). I think that the availability of units like trolls or mumakil as mercenaries would lessen faction distinctiveness by making every faction play too similarly. If there are specific "alternative lore" scenarios that people would like to explore (i.e., if Umbar conquers Harad, can they train Mumakil?), then I think this would be better handled by an AOR recruitment system on a faction-by-faction basis. That way, certain factions would be able to recruit certain alternative units in certain areas, but not via a regional mercenary available to *all* factions. On the trolls for Isengard point, I think it could go either way; after all, Saruman is able to command and manipulate orcs and wargs in his armies, so it doesn't seem a huge stretch to suggest that he might get trolls on his side, too. That said, I think there's a strong mechanical reason to deny Isengard trolls, if only to make it play differently from other evil factions (in TATW, I always liked that Isengard played more like a good faction than an evil one).

When it comes to using mercenaries to model allied interaction (i.e., Rohan's aid to Gondor, Harad's aid to Mordor), remember that the Attila engine actually does a pretty good job of getting allies to coordinate with each other (at least, compared to previous total war titles). If you're playing as Gondor, and Mordor is moving into the Pelannor fields, you can set one of Mordor's armies as a war coordination target, and Rohan will probably come and help you; at least, I've had pretty good luck with war coordination in vanilla Attila campaigns. Similarly, the computer actually does a pretty good job of coordinating multiple allied factions in combat (i.e., Sassanid vassal spam stacks in vanilla), so I think that you'd see Mordor/Harad/Rhun coordinated attacks without having to give Mordor many extra Harad and Rhun recruitment options. Just a thought.

BTW - just thought I'd point out that R2 and Attila allow for both "regional" mercenaries (available to all factions in a specific region) and "factional" mercenaries (available to a specific faction just about anywhere). R2 used factional mercenaries to portray how mercenary societies like Carthage operated, by giving them extra recruitment options from diverse regions. Aside from regional mercenary hires, perhaps factional mercenaries could be employed by certain factions as a regular recruitment source (like Carthage from R2)? Not exactly sure how to make this mechanic fit the lore (Umbar, maybe?), but a "mercenary" faction would be pretty cool from a mechanical perspective. Maybe the dwarves could recruit their higher-level troops primarily from factional mercenaries (with a low replenishment rate), to represent their very small population; that way, no matter how many settlements you capture, you're still limited to relatively small numbers of higher-level troops. Or something like that.

Makes perfect sense.

Funny how you sell yourself as a Tolkien expert and apparently don't even know that the Elves in Helm's Deep are a Jackson's invention. In the book, as Dude correctly notes, the only Elf in Helm's Deep is Legolas. Saying he was the only Elf in Helm's Deep is completely wrong for anybody who watched the films, but completely correct for anybody who read the books.

"I don't mean for you even to read the book, I both read and watched." How condescending. Maybe it's time to re-read The Two Towers before accusing people of ignorance in lore matters?

I think he needs to get a good old-fashioned Tolkien library and start reading it several times (like three times a year). That's what it takes Mr. Farwest. Not to be rude but your condescending combative attitude is starting to affect us all. For the future, the team has already said that the visuals are from the movies and everything else is from the lore, with a few things taken from the movies for inspiration. This is like the War of the Ring, forum edition. It's so tiring. xD

[Anybodys]

My two cents on mercenaries: they should be really common and cheap but with high upkeep. Soldiers from your towns are fighting for their families, or out of honor or whatever. Most only expect to get fed and led. Mercenaries need gold. Plus you have to remember middle earth during at the end of the third age was very depopulated. Especially in the North, but they are plenty of people who Tolkein sort of describes as tramps and ruffians who live out in the wild and Rangers are often lumped in with those groups.

There should be some stock mercenaries available almost everywhere: ruffians, bandit archers, farmers, hunters, light cavalry, horse archers, orc band, orc hunters. Then some mercenaries should only be gotten in a couple regions: trolls- Ettenmoors, Dol Guldor, Black Gates. Mumakil- far Harad. I have no problem with Mordor recruiting Harad horsearchers, or rhun recruiting orc bands, or Gondor recruiting rohirrim in anorien, or breelanders recruiting bandits. Adds to the flavor of armies.

[Dude with the Food]

Funny how you sell yourself as a Tolkien expert and apparently don't even know that the Elves in Helm's Deep are a Jackson's invention. In the book, as Dude correctly notes, the only Elf in Helm's Deep is Legolas. Saying he was the only Elf in Helm's Deep is completely wrong for anybody who watched the films, but completely correct for anybody who read the books.

"I don't mean for you even to read the book, I both read and watched." How condescending. Maybe it's time to re-read The Two Towers before accusing people of ignorance in lore matters?

I see you noticed my little test?



I agree with Anybodys over the role of mercenaries. They should only peoples of dubious morality which keeps them fairly limited to humans who for whatever reason, don't fight over any sense of loyalty and rogue orcs. Whether it's bandits in Eriador, corsairs in Harad or independent tribesmen in Rhun, there's plenty of scope for mercenaries. However, I don't like the idea of the Rohirrim being mercenaries of Gondor of Galadhrim being mercenaries for Thranduil - even if they aren't representing mercenaries. The Rohirrim certainly fought alongside Gondorians but were never under the command of Gondorians and therefore, I don't think they should be under the command of a Gondorian player.
@Farwest, in all of your examples, different races fought as allies under separate commanders. In-game that is represented by a being allowed to reinforce/be reinforced by allies - not by recruiting your allies units.

It's not about limiting the player, it's about having a game based within the lore.

Factions are supposed to have weaknesses as well as strengths. That's what makes them different. Against the Dwarves, I want to focus on bringing as many armour piercing weapons as possible and some light troops so I can outmanoeuvre them - not focus on spears because a stupid AI decided to spend it's entire budget on Dale Cavalry.
As Elves, I want to have to ambush as much as possible because I don't have the quantity to face enemies in open battles - not hire a bunch of Breelanders as meatshields while I exploit ranged superiority from safety.
Rhun should be able to call on massive hordes of men - almost equal in quality to other human factions -that's based on lore. There's a quote something along the lines of without the blue wizards, the men of the east would have overrun Middle Earth a long time ago. Imagine that kind of power being allowed to hire trolls simply because some people don't like being limited. It would be game-breakingly OP.

[Farwest]

Funny how you sell yourself as a Tolkien expert and apparently don't even know that the Elves in Helm's Deep are a Jackson's invention. In the book, as Dude correctly notes, the only Elf in Helm's Deep is Legolas. Saying he was the only Elf in Helm's Deep is completely wrong for anybody who watched the films, but completely correct for anybody who read the books.

"I don't mean for you even to read the book, I both read and watched." How condescending. Maybe it's time to re-read The Two Towers before accusing people of ignorance in lore matters?

I don't sell myself as a Tolkien expert. Can't I forget the detail about Haldir and other elves about Helm's Deep? So this removes all the lore I mentioned from Tolkien previously, piece by piece taken from the books at many places? Funny indeed. My mistake comes because I read the books before the movies, and movies had better base in my mind for that reason, therefore I am mistaken.

But you are not reading comments of Dude, that doesn't limit the elves, they were not rooted in Loth Lorien or other places like Dude is mentioning "there is no precedent of colloboration of forces in Middle Earth" Don't you have any comment about that? That is really a funny sentence. For instance Elves of Lórien were occupied in battles against forces out of Moria and Dol Guldur.

Moreover, there is combined operations of Lorien (Celeborn), Dale and Thranduil against easterlings further:
When the forces from Dol Guldur later attacked Mirkwood, Thranduil repulsed an attack and had the victory. His actions were in concert with the Dwarves and the Men of Dale against the Easterlings who attacked from the East. He came into an agreement with Celeborn that the southern part of Mirkwood would be counted as East Lórien. -The Lord of the Rings, Appendix B: The Tale of Years (Chronology of the Westlands), "The Great Years"

I think he needs to get a good old-fashioned Tolkien library and start reading it several times (like three times a year). That's what it takes Mr. Farwest. Not to be rude but your condescending combative attitude is starting to affect us all. For the future, the team has already said that the visuals are from the movies and everything else is from the lore, with a few things taken from the movies for inspiration. This is like the War of the Ring, forum edition. It's so tiring. xD

Alkar, sorry but since the beginning I am just supplying here with information, you are the community here whose stereotypes are applied to the mod perfectly but when we are bringing anything you guys are defending your own. So why we can't defend our own point of view, but yours is always rightful? I don't agree with you.
About Tolkien library, I already have and I give out almost all information here from there, however why I made a mistake I wrote at my answer to Bercor here, please read. And you don't criticize anything of Dude's blunder but attacking to my single blunder or mistake only. Great colloboration indeed. It seems if I have facilities, I will do my own submods by discarding your perspectives from the game. Here also tires me greatly same as you are tired.

I see you noticed my little test?

No I didn't see, you still blunder and not even realize you are making many mistakes. You are talking without knowledge. I did once there and it has a reason, I accept my mistake. But you are still not aware of yours.

Note to all by Farwest:
This kind of discussion really doesn't leave me time, for example to give input about how mercenaries should be additionally and it drains me to give more opinions or perspectives to the mod about what kind of additional aspects or strategical challenges could be implemented by using Attila engine and based on ME Lore too.

Whatever I bring creates big discussion here with some of the guys who seem to be defenders of their own grounds in the mod, therefore I leave this mod to you guys completely. I will see if I can implement anything in my own submods, therefore I won't contribute here any further.

[Dude with the Food]

But you are not reading comments of Dude, that doesn't limit the elves, they were not rooted in Loth Lorien or other places like Dude is mentioning "there is no precedent of colloboration of forces in Middle Earth" Don't you have any comment about that? That is really a funny sentence. For instance Elves of Lórien were occupied in battles against forces out of Moria and Dol Guldur.

I never said there is no collaboration. I'm just arguing that there are better ways of representing it than by using mercenaries represent alliances and that instead mercenaries should focus on representing mercenaries while alliances represent alliances. My previous post explains why in detail. If this is the end of the discussion, then that's my final opinion for the mod team.

[Farwest]

I never said there is no collaboration. I'm just arguing that there are better ways of representing it than by using mercenaries represent alliances and that instead mercenaries should focus on representing mercenaries while alliances represent alliances. My previous post explains why in detail. If this is the end of the discussion, then that's my final opinion for the mod team.

You had said:

I understand that Elves/Dwarves would represent aid but there isn't really a precedent for this outside specific individuals (Beleg in the Silmarillion and Elladan/Elrohir). In terms of modding, I don't think it's possible to allow mercenaries due to specific diplomatic relations or it may not be worth the effort unless the levying mechanic can be used which isn't the same thing as mercenaries anyway.

Collaboration is not limited to Elladan/Elrohir's cases.

Yes I agree on what Attila brings about War Coordination targets (I never had seen its use in my gameplays although), that also brings collaboration to the game too. I give the faction mercenaries suggestion as levy mechanic in Attila, at that time I didn't have a better word to mention about it. We agree on that thing already.

[Dude with the Food]

When was talking about Beleg/Elladan/Elrohir, I was talking about the possibility of units belonging to one faction being used by another - not collaboration in general which I do agree with.

[Farwest]

Agreed.
So let me give you some examples about possibility of units belonging to one faction being used by another, these are indeed precedents:
-Grey Company of Elladan/Elrohir and Halbarad as a small Dunedain Regiment accompanying Aragorn in Gondor.
-All Mordor forces from Misty Mountains, Gundabad, Sea of Nurnen, Harad, Rhun, Variags, Balchoth... etc. and all are contained in Mordor army.
-Gondor forces of Lossarnach Axemen, Morthond Vale Archers, Dol-Amroth Swan Knights given by the semi-independent fiefdoms (not factions, they were all under Gondor but possible half-Sasanid-style gaming).
-Dunedain remnants in Imladris
-Local Eriador armed-men and Dunedain Rangers,
-And we don't know the extent of collaboration of units in campaigns, whether they were completely used by one faction leading the war and units are used by them, or managed by pure war coordination under seperate banners:

• combined forces of Mirkwood-Dale-Dwarves against Orcs, Easterlings separetely (were they coordinated or under same banners time to time?);
  
• Imladris and Dunedain (Since time of Angmar until War of the Ring),
  
• Rohan and Gondor (coordinated),
  
• Mordor and Umbar during siege of Minas Tirith (these two were separated but coordinated);
  
• Mordor, Rhun and Easterlings for the campaigns in Dol Guldur (were they coordinated completely or were they under same banners time to time?)
  
• etc.

So we don't know the extent of their coordination mostly. Examples can be many, but we are limited with the lore of the books of course.

These all can be excellent war coordination targets if the game mechanics offer it perfectly, but we don't know if their collaboration can be implemented by AI flawlessly or just sitting by in their settlement and just before you finish your military campaign you see their army is on its way but late. These things are bothering.
Also according to gaming style of the player that kind of collaboration can be difficult too, like in my gameplays where I forget depending on my allies because of poor AI or rush the enemy. (So I prefer faction aids more as mercenaries and with levy mechanic).

[Dude with the Food]

I think the Grey Company is a special case because they function more as a bodyguard of Aragorn than as a unit under Gondorian command. In any case, they only come under Gondorian control after he becomes de facto ruler following Denethor's death which I think needs to be more of an scripted event/mission type thing than something available in open gameplay.

The forces of Mordor are all vassals so you can levy those units - no need for mercenaries. Although, I do think if it's possible levying should be opened to include all allies - not just vassals.

The team has already said Lossarnach/ Dol Amroth etc. (all the fiefdoms) will just be a part of one big Gondor faction and that fiefdom units won't be a high priority until all factions have a basic roster.

Imladris had special relationship with the Dunedain in terms of offering shelter but I don't think it's enough to allow units available for both factions because the Elves mainly stayed within Imladris while the Dunedain fought all over Eriador. If anything, Imladris could have a Dunedain garrison unit representing men living there or men who volunteered to aid the defence while the Remnants of Arnor could start with an Elven unit from Imladris' roster. However, considering the severe limitations of both factions' populations, I don't think they'd have enough warriors to support more than 1-2 units max being used by another faction.

The men of Eriador pretty much stayed in their towns (like Bree) or were bandits and were half the reason (along with orcs) the others stayed in towns. They might be garrison units for the Dunedain or be recruitable if Arnor is reforged. It also depends on whether or not they are even different factions. I know the team plans on them being separate but for a first release, they only need to one faction anyway.

In some of those examples, I'll agree that we don't know enough about them which leaves several interpretations open but others are less so. At the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, the Rohirrim were led by Theoden, Grimbold and Eomer while Gondor was led by Denethor and then Imrahil/Gandalf. The orcs fought under the Witch-King and Gothmog while Harad had a chieftain called the Black Serpent. Considering the orcs and the Haradrim lined up against different parts of the city I'd assume they fought as separate armies in alliance with the Haradrim being as much under the Witch-King's orders as any vassal would serve the second in command of their master. The corsairs were acting even more independently - they were raiding along coasts to keep Gondor's armies split up and their captains were also corsairs - allies/vassals of Sauron from Umbar - not from Mordor and as such, represent the Umbar faction in this scenario.



The only example I can half agree with you is Imladris and the Dunedain - the rest are all subject to an interpretation that I don't agree wit. It's up to the team to decide which interpretation is best represents the lore and gameplay.

[Alkar]

I think the Grey Company is a special case because they function more as a bodyguard of Aragorn than as a unit under Gondorian command. In any case, they only come under Gondorian control after he becomes de facto ruler following Denethor's death which I think needs to be more of an scripted event/mission type thing than something available in open gameplay.

The forces of Mordor are all vassals so you can levy those units - no need for mercenaries. Although, I do think if it's possible levying should be opened to include all allies - not just vassals.

The team has already said Lossarnach/ Dol Amroth etc. (all the fiefdoms) will just be a part of one big Gondor faction and that fiefdom units won't be a high priority until all factions have a basic roster.

Imladris had special relationship with the Dunedain in terms of offering shelter but I don't think it's enough to allow units available for both factions because the Elves mainly stayed within Imladris while the Dunedain fought all over Eriador. If anything, Imladris could have a Dunedain garrison unit representing men living there or men who volunteered to aid the defence while the Remnants of Arnor could start with an Elven unit from Imladris' roster. However, considering the severe limitations of both factions' populations, I don't think they'd have enough warriors to support more than 1-2 units max being used by another faction.

The men of Eriador pretty much stayed in their towns (like Bree) or were bandits and were half the reason (along with orcs) the others stayed in towns. They might be garrison units for the Dunedain or be recruitable if Arnor is reforged. It also depends on whether or not they are even different factions. I know the team plans on them being separate but for a first release, they only need to one faction anyway.

In some of those examples, I'll agree that we don't know enough about them which leaves several interpretations open but others are less so. At the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, the Rohirrim were led by Theoden, Grimbold and Eomer while Gondor was led by Denethor and then Imrahil/Gandalf. The orcs fought under the Witch-King and Gothmog while Harad had a chieftain called the Black Serpent. Considering the orcs and the Haradrim lined up against different parts of the city I'd assume they fought as separate armies in alliance with the Haradrim being as much under the Witch-King's orders as any vassal would serve the second in command of their master. The corsairs were acting even more independently - they were raiding along coasts to keep Gondor's armies split up and their captains were also corsairs - allies/vassals of Sauron from Umbar - not from Mordor and as such, represent the Umbar faction in this scenario.



The only example I can half agree with you is Imladris and the Dunedain - the rest are all subject to an interpretation that I don't agree wit. It's up to the team to decide which interpretation is best represents the lore and gameplay.

Yep, there are allies and war coordination ... and then there are slaves of Mordor, which also coordinate (or subordinate xD).

[Farwest]

I think the Grey Company is a special case because they function more as a bodyguard of Aragorn than as a unit under Gondorian command. In any case, they only come under Gondorian control after he becomes de facto ruler following Denethor's death which I think needs to be more of an scripted event/mission type thing than something available in open gameplay.

The forces of Mordor are all vassals so you can levy those units - no need for mercenaries. Although, I do think if it's possible levying should be opened to include all allies - not just vassals.

The team has already said Lossarnach/ Dol Amroth etc. (all the fiefdoms) will just be a part of one big Gondor faction and that fiefdom units won't be a high priority until all factions have a basic roster.

Imladris had special relationship with the Dunedain in terms of offering shelter but I don't think it's enough to allow units available for both factions because the Elves mainly stayed within Imladris while the Dunedain fought all over Eriador. If anything, Imladris could have a Dunedain garrison unit representing men living there or men who volunteered to aid the defence while the Remnants of Arnor could start with an Elven unit from Imladris' roster. However, considering the severe limitations of both factions' populations, I don't think they'd have enough warriors to support more than 1-2 units max being used by another faction.

The men of Eriador pretty much stayed in their towns (like Bree) or were bandits and were half the reason (along with orcs) the others stayed in towns. They might be garrison units for the Dunedain or be recruitable if Arnor is reforged. It also depends on whether or not they are even different factions. I know the team plans on them being separate but for a first release, they only need to one faction anyway.

In some of those examples, I'll agree that we don't know enough about them which leaves several interpretations open but others are less so. At the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, the Rohirrim were led by Theoden, Grimbold and Eomer while Gondor was led by Denethor and then Imrahil/Gandalf. The orcs fought under the Witch-King and Gothmog while Harad had a chieftain called the Black Serpent. Considering the orcs and the Haradrim lined up against different parts of the city I'd assume they fought as separate armies in alliance with the Haradrim being as much under the Witch-King's orders as any vassal would serve the second in command of their master. The corsairs were acting even more independently - they were raiding along coasts to keep Gondor's armies split up and their captains were also corsairs - allies/vassals of Sauron from Umbar - not from Mordor and as such, represent the Umbar faction in this scenario.

The only example I can half agree with you is Imladris and the Dunedain - the rest are all subject to an interpretation that I don't agree wit. It's up to the team to decide which interpretation is best represents the lore and gameplay.

Exactly, everything here are interpretations including Imladris' and Dunedain's case too. You can make everything faction based, mercenary/levy based or both or none. It is team's decision. But as you also admit, we have many precedents "that would represent aid". That's why we talked all these. There are even more things that we skipped at the earlier posts.
Nonetheless, let's see how the team will implement the good things according to situation or where anything fits nicely. Later we can see what is needed additionally.