Should the CPCA be excommunicated?

[Turbo]

THIS IS FOR RELIGIOUS DEBATE --

Background and History of the CPCA:
The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association is a division of the Chinese government that usurped control of the Roman Catholic churches in China. Roman catholics are forbidden from practicing their faith or attending church in China. This even applies to foreigners. There about 2 million followers of the CPCA which does not recognize the Church or Papal authority. There are about 12 million loyal Catholics who refuse to attend the CPCA and hold their own services with underground priests. China heavily persecutes the loyal Catholics and has imprisoned thousands of Catholics.

What should be done about the CPCA?
Right now the Vatican has not excommunicated these people for attending this fake religious organization. Our prelate however advocates 'vitandi', an excommunication that involves shunning the CPCA and allows for the providing of aid and priests. Vitandi will allow church organizations to bypass the CPCA and will help us protect our fellow Catholics by whatever means are necessary.

Pro's and Cons of Excommunication.
On one hand something needs to be done to support those persecuted Catholics and to show them that the Church has not forgotten them. On the other hand, many who attend the CPCA are Catholic who have either been forced by the state or believe that the CPCA is better than nothing at all.

Thoughts?

[Tom Paine]

Surely the ordinary worshippers in the CPCA should not be punished for worshipping at it, given that they really have no choice? That would be what excommunicating the whole body would entail. Rather, the heads of the body would be the ones "worthy" of excommunication for impersonation of the Catholic Church.

[Turbo]

Surely the ordinary worshippers in the CPCA should not be punished for worshipping at it, given that they really have no choice? That would be what excommunicating the whole body would entail. Rather, the heads of the body would be the ones "worthy" of excommunication for impersonation of the Catholic Church.

The followers of heretics are heretics. There are no halfway measures that can be done when it comes to faith and belief. Either the Church must endose the CPCA or excommunicate it.

True Catholics can not retaliate against the CPCA as the Church has not excommunicated the CPCA. If excommunication comes the bloodshed and violence will be considerable on both sides. The Chinese state will increase their persecution of the underground Catholics while the Church sends aid and volunteer priests to help the faithful. Oddly enough, most of the Chinese catholics want the CPCA to excommunicated regardless of consequence.

[Tom Paine]

The followers of heretics are misled and surely Christian doctrine would encourage their forgiveness, not their excommunication? Would you excommunicate someone who was convinced that use of condoms was acceptable in Catholicism for being misled?

[Farnan]

I've never been a fan of excommunication being a heretic myself and I disagree with it being used here. What would be the use? The CPCA doesn't recognise the Pope anyway.

[Tom Paine]

Its a public way to say to all Chinese Roman Catholics that the CPCA is not a Roman Catholic or Papally acceptable organisation, basically...

[Farnan]

To me it would cause too much conflict, and maybe give the CCP an excuse to persecute Roman Catholics, claiming that they are a Fifth Column sent by the Vactican States who would now officialy declared themselves as enemies of the Chinese government.

[Tom Paine]

From the OP:

China heavily persecutes the loyal Catholics and has imprisoned thousands of Catholics.

It (being a so-called communist country in the first place, if nothing else) needs no excuse to persecute its RC population, and does so already; this simply lays down clearly and definitively for all that the CPCA (which as you note does not recognise the Pope) is also not recognised by the Papacy as anything like legitimate.

[Farnan]

Yes, but you don't want them to give an excuse to the rest of the world. Right now they take a lot of flak for it, do you want them to have anything to reply with to that flak?

[Tom Paine]

What, that the Vatican is sending in spies, and that all Catholics are counter-revolutionaries? That Catholics must be shot to preserve China's cultural integrity and the cultural revolution? I'm dubious about the possibility of that defence, about its advisability, and about the sanity of anyone who took it seriously.

[Farnan]

Or maybe that RCs swear allegiance to an enemy of the state. I wouldn't believe it, but the less we can give them the better.

Just so there is no confusion, I like China but not the CCP.

[Tom Paine]

Which amounts to the same thing; unless it wants to call the Pope and Vatican enemies of the state, which would be an interesting manouvere on the international stage especially given the number of predominantly Catholic nations...

[Farnan]

But would any of those nations stand on the side of the Pope? If they would they threaten to hurt their relations with what is called the Rising Dragon, and risk being called fanatics?

All the CCP would have to do is declare the Pope the enemy of the State, and unless he want's to call a Crusade (which would probably muster up a grand total of about 50 people) against China he is powerless to say anything and China gets a convient execuse to use internationally.

[Tom Paine]

Actually the Pope has a powerful rhetorical tool; he can call to people to witness the Chinese reaction to his actions, he can call on people to witness the CCP's irrationality in its actions, and so on. The CCP would be harming more than aiding itself in all honesty; did Stalin declaring Trotsky an enemy of the state reduce the outcry at all over the killings of so-called Trotskyites, or Hitler's declaration that Jews were enemies of the state?

[Farnan]

But then any action he takes against China would be further justification. And rember few in the international community did anything to Hitler about the Jewish people till after the war. Till then they just ignored it...

Was there great international outrages during the Red Scares until after they were over?

Its an idea to excommunicate them, but to me it seems it may do more harm then good.


Squeakus I think you and I are on the wrong sides of this argument. Your supposed to be the evangelical Atheist and I'm supposed to be the devout Christian...

[Tom Paine]

Until the war, pretty much, there was no active violent persecution as occurs against Catholics in the PRC at present, just laws restricting their freedom of movement and so on.

[Farnan]

Krystalnacht was in either 36 or 38...

[Tom Paine]

Kristallnacht was November 1938, I believe; very shortly before the war, when we didn't want to risk a pan-European war by attacking Hitler... and there was no international community to appeal to, really.

[Farnan]

And we don't want another dark age by attacking China now do we?

[Tom Paine]

And who said anything about war? But a trade embargo, especially on a developing nation reliant so heavily upon export as China does, might do some good all round...