Divide et Impera - People of Rome Submod [Updated Oct 30]

[Dresden]

0.4 (save compatible)
- Activated foreign population occupy mechanic. Now when you take over a region, the population will be foreign and you will have to build up your own population.
- Removed cultural restrictions to recruitment system as it conflicts with the population concepts.
- Updated many naval population unit assignment classes.
- Added supply system effect values to the buildings rather than having generic descriptions.
- Fixed population turn per year settings (were at vanilla) for all campaigns.
- Small increase to foreign growth values to make sure they don't get too low in later game to allow for AOR units.
- Condensed effect texts on buildings to allow for more space.
- Fixed some incorrect and missing building effects.
- Fixed some missing unit assignments.

General Fixes/Changes (Incorporated 1.1f fix pack)
- Fixed Macedonian War Sparta not having admiral options.
- Fixed Mercenary Veneti Footmen missing stamina icon.
- Increased starting Cantabri spear unit size to 300 to match recruitable version (new campaign only)
- Increased chances of having some gladiator slaves in slave revolts.
- Fixed British Toutatis shrine culture bonus decreasing at higher tiers.
- Fixed some Belgic regions missing region effects.
- Changed Warhorse resource icon (thanks to smoesville!)
- Changed Concentrated Fire icon and added text to tooltip warning against use in naval combat.

[STDM]

Hi guys,

Can I ask, if I'm playing as a Rome and somebody will conquer my settlement and I take it back, will the population be foreign?

Thanks, can't wait to try it today

[JCB206]

Hi guys,

Can I ask, if I'm playing as a Rome and somebody will conquer my settlement and I take it back, will the population be foreign?

Thanks, can't wait to try it today

This is how the original worked. Makes holding onto your settlements more important.

[GM207]

Would love to see each faction having there own unique army battle formation on the battlefield guys, just an idea

[suras333]

Great!

Mysian Slingers and Mercenary Phygian Spearmen Pool I think should be Foreigners

[Maetharin]

Hey guys, just a few points I´d like to see in the mod.
I´d make hellenic mercenaries foreigners no matter the faction.

If these men had been citizens, they would have been eligible for the levy and regular recruitment in the first place.
Most greek mercenaries in the hellenic world would have been either exiles or those too poor to feed themselves or their families.

It f.e. doesn´t make sense for Athens to be able to recruit Achaean Mercenary hoplites through their citizen pool, the name itself implies that they were Achaeans.
On another note, the Achaean league only rose to prominence well after 272 BC, and their mercenaries would certainly not have been the rich kind.
Actually, they would simply have been part of the pelopponesian mercenaries.

BTW, would it be possible to apply the

new mechanic we've just implemented for when you lose and retake your capital

, but in a different way?
To be specific, I´d like to see something which leaves population classes from the same culture as you have the same, but changes them to foreign if the settlement is mainly of another culture.

Best regards

[JCB206]

As far the citizen or foreign population in conquered regions based on culture...

Even if you are say Macedon and conquer Larissa (same culture), you could recruit AOR Hoplites, Thuros Spears, etc as foreigners right? You just wouldn't be able to recruit Macedonian units? Seems historical. It wouldn't give you say 1,000 nobles that could be recruited as Companion Cavalry immediately. In the 10 turns it takes to build up your warrior and noble classes are your citizens colonizing new lands and "foreign" nobles and warriors applying for citizenship.

I have only started one campaign so far as Macedon and I have 17,000 nobles; 48,000 warriors; 85,000 commoners and less than 5,000 foreigners and I own just Macedonia and Thrace.

[GatoVolador]

What exactly is the "Base Growth" and why is it so extremely low for the 3rd and 4th Class? I have numbers ranging from -5% to -8% (Province of Thrakia). There is no way I can counteract that with buildings (the positive modifier for most of them is not superior to 0.5%). I´m steadily loosing Pop even without recruiting or replenishing :/
And Pop being tracked on a settlement level while everyhing else is tracked on a provincial level is kind of confusing. Could the modifiers sum up for the entire Province? Supplies get added from all the different sources (individual settlements) to a provincial number. That means that food does gets transported from X to Y. Now, if I have a farm on settlement X, does the growth modifier get added to all the other settlements in the province, or only to that particular one?
If not, then the problem I´m seeing right now is that no individual settlement will ever be able to overcome the relatively big negative "Base growth".
I feel like I´m babbling without making any sense, I hope this report helps... I´m so excited for this feature
Cheers

[Maetharin]

As far the citizen or foreign population in conquered regions based on culture...

Even if you are say Macedon and conquer Larissa (same culture), you could recruit AOR Hoplites, Thuros Spears, etc as foreigners right? You just wouldn't be able to recruit Macedonian units? Seems historical. It wouldn't give you say 1,000 nobles that could be recruited as Companion Cavalry immediately. In the 10 turns it takes to build up your warrior and noble classes are your citizens colonizing new lands and "foreign" nobles and warriors applying for citizenship.

I have only started one campaign so far as Macedon and I have 17,000 nobles; 48,000 warriors; 85,000 commoners and less than 5,000 foreigners and I own just Macedonia and Thrace.

The example you just used isn´t really accurate, since both Epirus and Macedon share the hellenic culture, so AOR units are substracted from your own population.

And if the mechanic for it already is in the vanilla mod, just in a different form, I think it´s reasonable to ask if it´s possible to use it this way.
Take macedonians in Asia and Egypt f.e., it would have been ridiculously stupid to not just absorb them into your own Katoikoi/Kleruchoi population.

[Dresden]

Unfortunately I think the foreign occupy mechanic has a few things that may be something we have to live with. Perhaps we can come up with a way to look at the dominant culture or something, but for the most part a few issues will be there. That includes the fact that if you lose a region for only one turn you will lose that population. But, in some ways that can be seen as slightly realistic because those citizens would most likely have fled, died or otherwise scattered when a settlement is taken by a foreign enemy. I realize it isn't perfect.

Great!

Mysian Slingers and Mercenary Phygian Spearmen Pool I think should be Foreigners

AOR and Merc troops are all foreign for factions that aren't from that culture. We may further refine those culture group settings, right now the Greeks share a large pool but the idea behind the population system is that certain groups share a culture.

What exactly is the "Base Growth" and why is it so extremely low for the 3rd and 4th Class? I have numbers ranging from -5% to -8% (Province of Thrakia). There is no way I can counteract that with buildings (the positive modifier for most of them is not superior to 0.5%). I´m steadily loosing Pop even without recruiting or replenishing :/
And Pop being tracked on a settlement level while everyhing else is tracked on a provincial level is kind of confusing. Could the modifiers sum up for the entire Province? Supplies get added from all the different sources (individual settlements) to a provincial number. That means that food does gets transported from X to Y. Now, if I have a farm on settlement X, does the growth modifier get added to all the other settlements in the province, or only to that particular one?
If not, then the problem I´m seeing right now is that no individual settlement will ever be able to overcome the relatively big negative "Base growth".
I feel like I´m babbling without making any sense, I hope this report helps... I´m so excited for this feature
Cheers

This is honestly the feedback we really need from campaign play throughs. Right now we have no idea if the growth values are too high or too low for various classes. The 4th class is supposed to be something that decreases over time but it may become a problem due to not having AOR troops to recruit in DeI. I added a base growth value to class 4 (foreign) in the last update that may help there. If 3rd and 4th classes are a serious problem that never can seem to grow properly, we definitely need to address that (especially the 3rd class, that should be the easiest to grow in theory).

[JCB206]

The example you just used isn´t really accurate, since both Epirus and Macedon share the hellenic culture, so AOR units are substracted from your own population.

And if the mechanic for it already is in the vanilla mod, just in a different form, I think it´s reasonable to ask if it´s possible to use it this way.
Take macedonians in Asia and Egypt f.e., it would have been ridiculously stupid to not just absorb them into your own Katoikoi/Kleruchoi population.

AOR units don't use foreigners? It's never cut and dry in history but I thought that was how it was portrayed. I will have to check.

The mechanic for foreigners of the conquered population is in Vannila PoR and should be in DEI now.

Unless we can tie the cultural percentage into population percentages then there won't be a perfect way of doing it. In your example if Egypt was 25% Hellenic culture, then you should have 25% of the population available between warriors and nobles. That would be great. If I am not mistaken that is not how it currently is in game. You can't have say Carthage owning Egypt and having 10,000 warriors for Carthiginian Hoplites, conquer it as Selucids and have 10,000 warriors immediately available as pikemen.

Posting this his on a phone. If I missed something or mid interpreted you, I Apoligize.

[JCB206]

Unfortunately I think the foreign occupy mechanic has a few things that may be something we have to live with. Perhaps we can come up with a way to look at the dominant culture or something, but for the most part a few issues will be there. That includes the fact that if you lose a region for only one turn you will lose that population. But, in some ways that can be seen as slightly realistic because those citizens would most likely have fled, died or otherwise scattered when a settlement is taken by a foreign enemy. I realize it isn't perfect.



AOR and Merc troops are all foreign for factions that aren't from that culture. We may further refine those culture group settings, right now the Greeks share a large pool but the idea behind the population system is that certain groups share a culture.



This is honestly the feedback we really need from campaign play throughs. Right now we have no idea if the growth values are too high or too low for various classes. The 4th class is supposed to be something that decreases over time but it may become a problem due to not having AOR troops to recruit in DeI. I added a base growth value to class 4 (foreign) in the last update that may help there. If 3rd and 4th classes are a serious problem that never can seem to grow properly, we definitely need to address that (especially the 3rd class, that should be the easiest to grow in theory).

1st paragraph; That's how I think of it. They are gone. Dead, sold, moved, etc.

2nd paragraph; Thanks Dresden. So if the territory is the same culture then the AOR troops come from your citizen manpower? Then what do foreigners for? Maybe I misread.

3rd paragraph; From my playthroughs... The nobles should be a bit lower. The 2nd class seems ok but maybe a bit high. The 3rd group is way too low. I would think the commoners would be a large percentage of the population. Someone with better current research than me can jump in here. I would think the commoners would be more numerous. They are currently only 40% of my population.

Town Centers, manufacturing buildings, ports, etc should all increase commoners possibly. Wage work. Warriors and nobles to come from Farms, Cattle, and Horse Farms. Land owners. Just an idea.

[Dresden]

In the current settings (at least how I read them, they are under the modifiers lib script), the 3rd class gets the largest bonus to growth. But, obviously, somewhere that isn't translating. I think that tax rate may have something to do with it, higher taxes = lower growth for them possibly. We will continue to alter the base growth and other bonuses, including looking at buildings.

To address the AOR/Merc system. How it is supposed to work is that there are various culture groups assigned to factions. Within these culture groups, units are assigned if they are from that culture. If a faction goes to recruit a unit included in their culture pool, it will cost their normal population (class 1-3). If its a unit outside it, it will cost foreign population. So, Rome recruiting Italian AOR units would use their 3rd class but recruiting Germans or Gauls would use 4th. Hopefully that is how it is currently working.

The Greek culture pool is large and is somewhat an advantage for those factions. I actually think that makes it interesting because Greeks had spread across the Mediterranean at an early time and one of the advantages for them was indeed being able to find their culture in many locations. Because of that, they have more options in terms of those units when compared with other factions. That difference makes for more interesting gameplay, but I realize we may need to further refine some of those groups.

[Irishmafia2020]

I played about seven years as Syracuse, without any wars and my overall population fell by almost 20%. In the first two population groups I was gaining a small amount of population, but the lower ones were losing hundreds of people every turn. I didn't really play that long obviously, but I wonder if the population mechanics are fair to single settlement factions. It just seemed like my city was being hollowed out, and there was not an obvious way in four building slots in a shared province to stem the drop in population. Perhaps the modifier (if it exists) for keeping population in faction capitals should be strengthened - otherwise single settlement factions play like a version of "Detroit: Total War". As a side note, I would play that game...

[GatoVolador]

This is honestly the feedback we really need from campaign play throughs. Right now we have no idea if the growth values are too high or too low for various classes. The 4th class is supposed to be something that decreases over time but it may become a problem due to not having AOR troops to recruit in DeI. I added a base growth value to class 4 (foreign) in the last update that may help there. If 3rd and 4th classes are a serious problem that never can seem to grow properly, we definitely need to address that (especially the 3rd class, that should be the easiest to grow in theory).

Hey Dresden, glad it helped. I have a few more observations on this matter:

- From the Vanilla PoR++ page, Base Growth is described as "each region will get a base growth rate which will be reduced as the population increases and go negative once the population goes above a certain level to represent a theoretical max population". So it seems to be a curve to help quickstart low Pop settlements and at the same time a soft cap for settlements to not grow beyond a certain limit unless you try really hard. Buuut, my regions right now have an economic impact of -15% (as in negative 15%) because they are "sparsely populated". So one of the two things are wrong, either my region is sparsely populated and the base growth shouldn´t be negative (as I noted earlier, between -5% and -8%), or I´m way beyond the theoretical max, but then I shouldn´t have the income penalty from not having enough people around.

- I still have the question if individual buildings adding to growth affect only the settlement they´re in, or the whole Province (????). My thought process is, if Supplies add up on a provincial basis, and groth in antiquity depended highly on the acces to food, then the growth factors should add up to. What is your take on this? As it is right now, a Single settlement is absolutely unable to go beyond +2% for a given class with buildings, and that assuming it specialices in "producing" that specific class (never mind the other 3). With an assumed +1% from religion, -2% from normal taxation and +1,5% from an unspecified Food modifier you have a max producing capacity of +2%. Every time the "Base growth" goes beyond that in negative numbers, the pop shrinks. Due to the very nature of using porcentual numbers, high pop classes (like the 3rd and 4th) will be affected in a more radical manner. Loosing 3.4 of a class doesn´t seem like much, but we are talking about 741 freemen in a settlement with 21.775 (or so the tooltips tell me). That is a whole lot of people just vanishing from existence from turn to turn. So in the end it will normalize at about the same numbers as the 2nd class, at which point the porcentual changes will be equally high/low in absolute numbers.

- Somewhat related to the prior question, having a food surplus currently adds "growth" as in the old growth (what has been renamed in the new tooltips as Province Development Points). Besides the obvious consistency issue with the names (which given the efficiency of the DeI Team, I´m sure is being adressed already); having an empire-wide food surplus should also add to growth empire-wide. Rome depended on the grain from Siracuse, and later Egypt, to feed the people of the city itself. In game terms, those are of course different provinces, and thus the only way to contribute, would be in an empire-wide manner. Of course food surpluss should have a maximum (just as the influence it had/has on the "old" growth).

- Is there a way to merge the two tooltips? I don´t know if I´m alone on this, but I find it a pain to have to alternate between the tooltip telling you the current Pop and the tooltip with the prognostics. Moreso since I have to do it for each settlemnt individually.

I hope this helps, keep it up guys, you are great!
Cheers

Edit: a few more remarks about the nature of using percentage values.

[Dresden]

Feel free to post some of the campaign saves as you get into later parts. I can use those for testing and balancing some of the variables.

[STDM]

Thanks for the mod guys, I would like to help with few things I found odd.

In my play through as Rome (turn +-105) after Marian reforms, out of my 336 000 population, 67 000 is patricians. And in this stage I have no idea what they are for. I recruited some Triari and Cavalry before from that pool, but now in Italia provice I have like 1/3 of them there. I would definitely lower grow rate for them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Another thing is, that Taurisci Securiferi are recruited from plebs pool. Even the description says that they were seen as barbarians by the Romans, so I would put recruitment from the 3rd class.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And last thing is, if I want to recruit some archers, I had to take Syracuse and recruit some Cretan Archers, I'm fine with that they are recruited from foreign class. But after Marian Reforms, you are able to recruit Italian Auxiliary Archers. So I would like to use them, but they are recruited from foreign class too, even though they are peasants, so I would say more likely 3rd class. Not even to mention that by turn 100 you are most likely out of foreign class in whole province (I have there like 700 foreigners). Same goes for spearmen, I want to recruit Italian Auxiliary Spearmen, but they are recruited from foreign class again.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Just few things that I found. If you want, I can upload save file, but it is only turn 105.

Cheers guys!

[Colonel Mustard]

What I want to know is when is the pike units reform gonna take place, where they fix the phalangites and allow them to hold units at a distance.

[Dresden]

@STDM Thanks for the specific feedback, I will look into those issues for the next update. I think you are right in that 1st class is a bit too high right now and 3rd may be a bit too low.


@Colonel Mustard Pike units have been discussed ad nauseum on these forums, you can go find plenty of posts of why they are the way they are. Its possible that in 1.2 the battle changes will indeed improve that, but this update (1.15) won't have any battle changes for the most part.

[Amras89]

A little feedback here
I am correct at turn 50 as Rome (Julia) at very hard and normal battles and have the Italia, Magna Graecia and Corsica et Sardinia provinces.

I need to develop a new tactic as because I can no longer steamroll though the Italy and need to slow down because of no replenishment in newly occupied regions and the supply system but i like that

But at the grown section I think I have found bugs.
The grown meters disappear or moved further to right and overlap the province name.
They returned as so soon I restart the game.
I also miss the grown number next to the meters as I have no idea when I can unlock building slots.

The class grown is also too unbalanced.
Like #STDM I have too many Patricians and too few Peregrimi. A capital province should have a constant immigration because of the capital is the culture, economic and politic centrum of Empire.

EDIT: My game crashed two times in few turns between. I do not know why but my only mods is the beta test mod, DEI Faction + Unit Names restored (English), the DEI steam mods and the Rome: Total War Music mod.
I have upload my lastest savegame file here
http://www.megafileupload.com/6ixg/B...e_of_Rome.save