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  1. #1

    Default County Of Flanders

    First of all congrats to the team. It's looking splendid and will be a massive new game in the end.

    I've read that County of Flanders will be a playable faction? Seems about right due to the importance of this small, but economic powerhouse in the Medieval Ages. Especially Brugge and Ghent ofcourse, were among biggest cities in Europe and also adjoint province of Brabant (in contrast to French vassal Flanders) with the port of Antwerp was very important at the end of the Medieval Ages.

    Any ideas on Unit-Rooster yet? I suspect heavy infantry and mercenary based? Factions trait based on Diplomacy and Trade?

    Looking forward to replay the battle of Battle of the Spurs, and killing of French Knights
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia?

  2. #2

    Default Re: County Of Flanders

    For sure they have some good pikemens units the pique appear in scotland and flanders first then i'll hope they'll have a good pique unti roster .

  3. #3

    Default Re: County Of Flanders

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9z-4gWKbMI

    Good re-enactment of battle near Antwerp, Brabant late Medieval forces.
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia?

  4. #4
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: County Of Flanders

    Nice battle. Interesting to see that one guy with a big sword throw imhimself into the enemy formation. When it comes to units, I'll just copy parts of the posts from the Merceneary- and Research thread that I made earlier. Since you're (I assume) from the area, more qualified to make a final roster. I have two suggestions to their roster
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Leugemeete Frescos of Flemish Militia from 1346 and suggestions 01
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The images of the Flemish militia 1346 and they look relatively well armoured for a militia of it's time. Notice that that the archers and crossbows have sword side arms. The archers seem to have padded coif, while the crossbows have mail coif (?). The original is gray, and were lost in 1911. The painted images are reconstructed imaged.






    My suggestion is to make units that are called the name of each of the guilds, because that's how other city militias were organized in battle and it's presented in these images as well. They would all mostly have geodendag in each company, but for the sake of uniqueness, I suggest exploiting what we see from the images. For example:


    • Archers / Crossbowmen are called Brotherhood of St George[1][2][3].
    • Normal Goedendag or pikes unit is called Brotherhood of St Sebastian, they have a lot of shields so probably a front-line type unit. Possibly a late game version with Late pole type Goedendag (see album below for examples).
    • (Double handed) Axe unit is called Butcher's Guild.
    • Falshion unit (or sword and shield) is called Fishmongers’ Guild.
    • Armed with 1 handed Geodendag and shield (see album below), because the short geodendag looks like the image in the Baker's Guild banner.
    • This unit have some boost to moral and is called Brewers’ Guild (I know you're smiling reading that. ).
    • Textile was the main export of Flandern, so perhaps the Textile Cutters’ Guild is reserved for spears or pikes, because it's such a big enterprise, lots of men to fill the ranks.
    • There also needs to be a patrician's guild for horsemen, as we see from the picture of St George guild, the mounted man has a crossbow in his hand. Perhaps a Mounted Crossbow unit with sword or standard lance type.

    PS: These are mostly my suggestions based on the historical images of their different guilds. I don't know Belgian nor have I researched this, so other people from Belgium probably know more than me regarding what their roster would look like.

    Album of different Geodendag weapons. This pole/club/mace weapon aswell as long spears seem to be quite prevalant in Flandern.


    Suggestion 02
    We can also separate them from the towns they came from and give them their respective uniforms:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    66. LOW COUNTRIES FOOT-SOLDIER, 14th CENTURY




    This figure is taken from a surviving engraving of the Leugemeete, a lost 14th century fresco depicting unformed soldiers of the Weavers Guild of Ghent, the escutcheons on his shield probably bearing the arms of his guild. The fresco showed three bodies of men, the first of archers and pikemen, the second of crossbowmen, and the third of pikemen and men armed with plançon à picots as here (see below). The first 2 units also wear uniforms, but of a single colour rather than mi-parti. Uniforms were apparently in use among Low Countries towns and guilds from the very beginning of the 14th century and possibly earlier, guild members wearing the livery or badge of their professional association. Froissart actually gives us a list of uniforms worn in Philip van Artevelde's army at Roosebeke in 1382 which, if he has given them all the same sequence as the various contingents he lists as being present, would give us the following town liveries:



    • Ghent: Blue and yellow (which seems to tally with the Leugemeete, the actual colours of which are unknown).
    • Alost: Black bend on red.
    • Grammont: White chevron on a blue jacket.
    • Courtrai: Paly of green and blue.
    • Bruges: A fess chequy of black and white (given as the fifth uniform in most versions, but al least one precedes it with blue and red lozengy).
    • Damme: Red and white quarterly.
    • Sluys: Blue with a red quarter (some versions say all blue').
    • Le Franc: (Presumably the Franc of Bruges, an area of Western Flanders dependent on Bruges) 'Cut with red above and white below'.



    In addition we know that the Liègeois wore red uniforms in 1467.


    As already mentioned, the weapon carried here is a plançon à picot, often erroneously identified as a goedendag by modern authorities. It had a shaft of about 5½ feet, broadening at the top where a socket and iron spike were fitted. The plançon a broche was the same but with a longer, more slender spike, and the chandelier was also similar but with more of a club-like socket. Froissart refers to these weapons simply as 'spiked staves'; he refers to Artevelde's men as each carrying a staff with an iron spike and ferrule'. The plançon was banned by some late-14th and early-15th century statutes and fell out of favour after the 14th century. In closing on the subject it should just be noted that the plançon was possibly also in use elsewhere, having been borne by 2 figures on the Hastings brass of 1347 (where the account of 1408 describes it as 'grande baston'), though this particular brass may in fact be the work of Flemish (more probably French) craftsmen.


    Lowland troops on the Courtrai Chest, where the plançon is also prominent, are basically identical to this figure; those representing the Ypres contingent have a Lorraine cross on their breasts.




    Source: http://www.warfare.altervista.org/14/Leugemeete.htm

    Courtrai Chest
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Courtrai Chest, made some time during the 14th century. Depicting the Battle of Golden Spurs of 1302. You can see prevalent use of the club version of goedendag. The spears used doesn't seem to be the length of modern pikes (16 feet), but a bit shorter than modern pikes. That could also be artistic representation. See link for more images: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtrai_Chest

    The Flemish Book of Hours with calender and their depiction of pikes
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    In the Book of Hours with calendar (1300, Belgium, Flanders. Thanks to Trinity Collage, Cambridge) I came across some Flemish soldiers that might have been an inspiration for the Flemish Pikemen Mercenaries from Medieval 2, but I'm not sure. Pike -type weapons in the Flemish book:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Mail coifs


    The book also contains a lot of mail hauberk, double handed axes, sword&shield (both round and heather), coat of arms, sword and buckler, bows and crossbows.




    Flemish armour and artwork
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Some of these go little bit beyond the time frame, but perhaps serve some inspirational purpose to late game knights.

    Tournament Helm Date: ca. 1510–20
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Culture: Anglo-Flemish Medium: Steel Dimensions: H. 17 1/4 in. (43.8 cm); D. 14 1/8 in. (35.9 cm); Wt. 10 lb. 5 oz. (4675 g) Classification: Helmets
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6c97d26079.jpg
    http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/26456


    Flemish Armet 1505-1520


    Flemish 15th century armet

    Flemish tournament armour 1490
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    1500-1510
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Flemish armet, 1500
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Flemish pavise, 15th century
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Late 15th century Ghent militia banner. Lion was originally silver.



    Netherlands, S. (Bruges);
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last quarter of the 15th century, before 1483. Medieval Imago & Dies Vitae Idade Media e Cotidiano
    http://www.bl.uk/IllImages/BLCD/big/K900/K90033-21a.jpg


    Late 15th century
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    1398-1410 - 'spandrel figure', Sint-Martinusbasiliek, Halle, province of Flemish Brabant, Belgium


    Flemish forces defend town, around 1400
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Froissart,Jean,Chronicler. Two English ships with soldiers with armour and lances attacking the harbour of Cadsand in Flanders, defended by soldiers inside and outside a fortified tower.

    http://i.imgur.com/BFZrnDz.jpg?1
    Besançon BM MS.864, 34v



    I also post Old Frisian muster law since it's in close proximity to Flander and perhaps give some insight to early roster.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Old Frisian Law, 12th century
    TL;DR
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Source: http://www.languageandlaw.org/SKELTANA.HTM

    Five weapons: With spade and with fork, with shield, and with sword, and with spear. (spade and fork? maybe some sort of siege defense equipment and polearm? I don't know)
    Requirements that a free Frisian who owns property worth

    30 pounds: Horse and weapon for the defense of the realm.
    20 pounds: (probably) pole or long weapon.
    12 pounds: Spear and shield.
    He who own less: Quiver and bow.


    Extended version:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thit is riucht thet thi fria Fresa ni thor fira hereferd fara, thur ban ni thur bod, than mittha ebba wt and mittha flode up, truch tha ned, thet hi thenne ower alle degan wera skel with thenne salta se and with thenne wilda witsing, mith fif wepnem, mith spada and mith forka, mith skelde and mith swerde and mith etkeres orde [thur thet, thet hi thenne ower waria skel], bi enre liudwerthene, ther hit him keth worde mith boda iefta mith bakne. Iefta sexasum swera, thet hit him mith boda ni mith bakne keth ni worde.
    This is the law: the free Frisian need make no further foray, whether under proclamation or order, than out with the ebb and back with the flood; because he needs must guard the shore, day in, day out, against the salt sea and the wild viking (probably refer to raiders or pirates) with five weapons: with spade and with fork, with shield and with sword, and with spear's point. (And this he must do) on pain of one wergeld, whenever notice is given him by messenger or by beacon, or else swear with five compurgators that such notice was not given him.

    Thit is riucht, alder thi fria Fresa thritich punda werth erves heth an sinre were) thet hi horses and wepnes ewarad wesa skel ti ther landwere. Ief him thes berst, so skel hi with sine frana mith twam pundum beta. Thit is riucht, thi ther tventiga punda werth [erves] an sinre were hath, thet thi skel habba truch lang wepen, iefta mith twam pundum beta.
    Thit is riucht, thi ther tolef punda werth heweth erwes, thet hi skel habba spere and skeld ti ther liudwere, iefta mith twam pundum beta.
    Thit is riucht, thi ther lessa hath, hi skel habba koker and boga ti ther liudwere ief mith twam pundum beta.

    This is the law: when the free Frisian has thirty pounds worth of land in his possession, he shall be equipped with force(authors translation, I think Horse might be the correct translation) and weapon for the defense of the realm. If he fails in this, he shall pay two pounds for it to the magistrate.
    This is the law: he who has twenty pounds’ worth of land in his possession shall have a two-handed sword (authors translation, truch lang wepen could be read as "long weapon") , or pay for it with two pounds.
    This is the law: he who has twelve pounds’ worth of land shall have spear and shield for the defense of the people or pay for it with two pounds.
    This is the law: he who has less shall have quiver and bow for the defense of the people, or pay for it with two pounds.

    Thanks to Pieter B.: http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic....114&highlight=


    ~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; March 20, 2016 at 01:39 PM.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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  5. #5

    Default Re: County Of Flanders

    Good research. Unfortunately in early Medieval Ages all is Flanders concentrated, Brugges and Ghent like you stated. Here Mercenary Footsoldiers would make the bulk of armies : clubs, 'goedendag'-spikes, spears, swords and limited cavalry. Crossbow and bows, and elite troups could be linked to Guilds (I like this view)!

    Late medieval ages focus shifted to Brussel and Antwerp, near to Spanish rule and economic powerhouses of Brabant : here Burgundy should be closely linked. I'm thinking plate mail and mercenaries.
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia?

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