The War On Christmas

[Bwaho]

The War On Christmas... is there a war at all? if so, how do you feel about it?


lets get this debate going!

[Sit down, fat dog]

What most people see as Christmas traditions rarely date to before the 19th century, and those that do are often pagan. So do whatever the hell you want for Christmas and worry about more important issues if you have to worry at all.

[Siblesz]

Christmas is pagan worship! DESTROY SATAN'S INFLUENCE ON AMERICAN CULTURE212!11 Etc, etc, etc.

But seriously... Christmas is just a nice holiday where you are supposed to have fun and drink alchohol... what else is there to it? I mean, here in China they butcher the concept of Christmas, but who cares? I learned something today... Christmas is not about love or being together with your family or worshiping a fat, bearded man in a red suit... it's about the presents. And ham... Yes... delicious ham.

[Sit down, fat dog]

Sausages wrapped in bacon.

[Justinian]

Christmas only survives as a mainstream holiday because it's massively profitable to the corporations. Any holiday that convinces people to buy stuff from you for other people is an awesome holiday. Hell, look at all the holidays in America. Thanksgiving: buy food. Easter: buy candy. Memorial Day: buy hamburgers.

If you can name me a single mainstream American holiday which doesn't include buying something for someone, I'll be amazed and possibly worship Satan.

[Siblesz]

Christmas only survives as a mainstream holiday because it's massively profitable to the corporations. Any holiday that convinces people to buy stuff from you for other people is an awesome holiday. Hell, look at all the holidays in America. Thanksgiving: buy food. Easter: buy candy. Memorial Day: buy hamburgers.

If you can name me a single mainstream American holiday which doesn't include buying something for someone, I'll be amazed and possibly worship Satan.

You forget St. Valentines: buying really corny crap no one needs.
And also, black friday after Thanksgiving.
And Halloween: buy candy.

[Justinian]

You forget St. Valentines: buying really corny crap no one needs.
And also, black friday after Thanksgiving.
And Halloween: buy candy.

Exactly. Valentine's Day is probably the worst, because it actually takes something that could be meaningful (love) and turns it into money (and/or chocolate). Is it just me or is the love = chocolate equation slightly fallacious? :hmmm:

[Siblesz]

Exactly. Valentine's Day is probably the worst, because it actually takes something that could be meaningful (love) and turns it into money (and/or chocolate). Is it just me or is the love = chocolate equation slightly fallacious? :hmmm:

Well... chocolate is indeed a lot more delicious and rewarding than love, so I guess it's flawed.

[Justinian]

Well... chocolate is indeed a lot more delicious and rewarding than love, so I guess it's flawed.

Chocolate is a lot more reliable too.

[Bwaho]

Christmas only survives as a mainstream holiday because it's massively profitable to the corporations. Any holiday that convinces people to buy stuff from you for other people is an awesome holiday. Hell, look at all the holidays in America. Thanksgiving: buy food. Easter: buy candy. Memorial Day: buy hamburgers.

This isn't true for all holidays in general. Christmas hasn't been celebrated the same way throughout its history, but it was celebrated in the past even without the massive present buy-craze.

If you can name me a single mainstream American holiday which doesn't include buying something for someone, I'll be amazed and possibly worship Satan.

I can't name you an American holiday, but I can name you a swedish holiday where you don't have to buy presents: Midsummer.

[Sit down, fat dog]

You're right. Hell, now I think of it, there's not a single day where I don't have to buy food!

[Sit down, fat dog]

Guy Fawkes night.

[LoZz]

yer i think in the uk over the last few years their has been, but its been a small scale war and lot of small incidents blown out of purportion, but this year their has been a back lash against those who tryed to "stop christmas" and uk muslim leaders have teamed up with the church of england etc to form a forum and are writeing to concils etc to have a "white christmas" again, as destroying it hurt both christian and muslim alike (the muslims get blamed for it)

[Tom Paine]

Yes, there is a war on Christmas:

Christmas time is here, by golly,
Disapproval would be folly.
Deck the halls with hunks of holly,
Fill the cup and don't say when.

Kill the turkeys, ducks and chickens,
Mix the punch, drag out the Dickens.
Even though the prospect sickens,
Brother, here we go again.

On Christmas Day you can't get sore,
Your fellow man you must adore.
There's time to rob him all the more
The other three hundred and sixty-four.

Relations, sparing no expense, 'll
Send some useless old utensil,
Or a matching pen and pencil.
("Just the thing I need, how nice!")

It doesn't matter how sincere it is,
Nor how heart felt the spirit,
Sentiment will not endear it,
What's important is the price.

Hark, the Herald Tribune sings,
Advertising wondrous things.
God rest ye merry merchants,
May ye make the Yuletide pay.
Angels we have heard on high,
Tell us to go out and buy!

So, let the raucous sleigh bells jingle,
Hail our dear old friend Kris Kringle,
Driving his reindeer across the sky.
Don't stand underneath when they fly by.

Its fought by consumers, by shops, and by the stock market. Its fought by all who buy Christmas presents. Is Christmas a consumer holiday about fun? Well, no, not originally; that is a simple mesh of paganistic Saturnalia traditions with Christian ideas, to fully replace the "old Gods"... yes, there is a war, but its not fought by those often accused of fighting it.

[mrjesushat]

There's a war on Christmas, but that's only because there's always a war on something going on around here. We've also got the War on Drugs, the War on Terror and the War on Thanksgiving (the day we celebrate the near-total annihilation of the Native American peoples, by over-eating and watching meaningless sporting events).

What's happening has more to do with people learning the realities of history and seeing beyond myths than it does with any desire to destroy specific belief-systems.

When children grow up, they realize that Santa was really just a man in a suit at the mall. When a civilization begins to grow up, it starts to realize that its mythologies are just that---stories loaded with metaphor, intent upon specific purposes. Those purposes are driven by an agenda of control. If people stop doing Christmas, Christianity loses stock, and the stock market loses value. Of course, this might be the sort of thing that the historical Joshua of Nazareth would have smiled at, but it's also the sort of thing that Jesus Christ strongly disapproves of.

Simple as pie. Christmas pie.

[Farnan]

Yes, there is a war on Christmas:

Its fought by consumers, by shops, and by the stock market. Its fought by all who buy Christmas presents. Is Christmas a consumer holiday about fun? Well, no, not originally; that is a simple mesh of paganistic Saturnalia traditions with Christian ideas, to fully replace the "old Gods"... yes, there is a war, but its not fought by those often accused of fighting it.

I actually agree with you on this occassion. Christmas is being changed from a celebration of the birth of Christ to a consumer event where people spend more money than they can afford to buy presents for people that barely appreciate it. The whole spirit is gone...

(I am aware of the day's paganistic begginnings, but Chrisitian's celebrated Christ's birth before Christmas was started, the day however was chosen to replace a pagan holiday)

What Jesus Might say about His Birthday

Dear children,

It has come to my attention that many of you are upset that folks are taking My name out of the season. Maybe you've forgotten that I wasn't actually born December 25th and that it was some of your predecessors who decided to celebrate My birthday on what was actually a time of pagan festival - although I do appreciate being remembered anytime.

How I personally feel about this celebration can probably be most easily understood by those of you who have been blessed with children of your own. I don't care what you call the day. If you want to celebrate My birth just, GET ALONG AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Now, having said that, let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn't allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen and put in a small nativity scene on your own front lawn. If all My followers did that there wouldn't be any need for such a scene on the town square because there would be many of them all around town. Stop worrying about the fact that people are calling the tree a holiday tree, instead of a Christmas tree. It was I who made all trees. You can & may remember Me anytime you see any tree. Decorate a grape vine if you wish: I actually spoke of that one in a teaching explaining who I am in relation to you & what each of our tasks were. If you have forgotten that one, look up John 15: 1 - 8.

If you want to give Me a present in remembrance of My birth here is my wish list. Choose something from it.
1. Instead of writing protest letters objecting to the way My birthday is being celebrated, write letters of love and hope to soldiers away from home. They are terribly afraid and lonely this time of year. I know, they tell Me all the time.
2. Visit someone in a nursing home. You don't have to know them personally. They just need to know that someone cares about them.
3. Instead of writing George complaining about the wording on the cards his staff sent out, why don't you write and tell him that you'll be praying for him and his family. Then follow up. It will be nice hearing from you again.
4. Instead of giving your children a lot of gifts you can't afford and they don't need, spend time with them. Tell them the story of My birth, and why I came to live with you down here. Hold them in your arms and remind them that I love them.
5. Pick someone that has hurt you in the past and forgive him or her. Let them know that they are more important than a hurt.
6. Did you know that someone in your town will attempt to take their own life this season because they feel so alone and hopeless? Since you don't know who that person is, try giving everyone you meet a warm smile; it could make the difference. Also, you might consider supporting the local Hot-Line: they talk with people like that every day.
7. Instead of nit picking about what the retailer in your town calls the holiday, be patient with the people who work there. Give them a warm smile and a kind word. Even if they aren't allowed to wish you a "Merry Christmas" that doesn't keep you from wishing them one. Then stop shopping there on Sunday. If the store didn't make so much money on that day they'd close and let their employees spend the day at home with their families.
8. If you really want to make a difference, support a missionary, especially one who takes My love and Good News to those who have never heard My name. You may already know someone like that.
9. Here's a good one. There are individuals and whole families in your town who not only will have no "Christmas" tree, but neither will they have any presents to give or receive. If you don't know them (and I suspect you don't) buy some food and a few gifts and give them to the Marines, the Salvation Army or some other charity and they will make the delivery for you.
10. Finally if you want to make a statement about your belief in and loyalty to Me, then behave like a Christian. Don't do things in secret that you wouldn't do in My presence. Let people know by your actions that you are one of mine.

P.S Don't forget; I am God and can take care of Myself. Just love Me and do what I have told you to do. I'll take care of all the rest. Check out the list above and get to work; time is short. I'll help you, but the ball is now in your court. And do have a most blessed Christmas with all those whom you love and remember, I LOVE YOU.

(Just to make sure no one thinks the wrong thing, I didn't write the letter, I found it and thought it would fit here.)

[Tom Paine]

I actually agree with you on this occassion. Christmas is being changed from a celebration of the birth of Christ to a consumer event where people spend more money than they can afford to buy presents for people that barely appreciate it. The whole spirit is gone...

People appreciate it. Its just not really in the Christian spirit because, to once ore quote Mr Lehrer,

It doesn't matter how sincere it is,
Nor how heart felt the spirit,
Sentiment will not endear it,
What's important is the price.

[Farnan]

People appreciate it. Its just not really in the Christian spirit because, to once ore quote Mr Lehrer,

After a few days, the clothes are put away never to be worn again, the toys are tossed along with the rest, never even remembering why they were given them, the video games played over spending time with the family member or friend who gave them.

[Erik]

I am aware of the day's paganistic begginnings, but Chrisitian's celebrated Christ's birth before Christmas was started, the day however was chosen to replace a pagan holiday

I doubt it.
Celebrating births is a typical Roman tradition.
Non-Romans in Jesus' time didn't even record birthdays, so it's unlikely that Jesus himself even knew on which day he was born.

The death (and consequent rising) of Jesus was of far more importance to early Christians than his birth.

I think Americans are the only ones who put such big religious importance on Christmas.

[Bwaho]

How about celebrating the birth of a philosopher who urged a brotherhood of man?

I don't believe in that either so no I wont celebrate that when it's christmas. For me christmas isn't about jesus or presents it's about having a peaceful day where you dine and spend time with people you like. It's really just a day dedicated to family and friends.

As I understand it a lot of the christmas traditions are actually pagan:

The christmas tree is a german tradition that wasn't orginally a christian one?

The food which is meat based (ham and the likes) is from a surplus tradition in germany where people with livestock would feast on fresh meat every once a year (around christmas time). The rest of the year they would eat meat that had been preserved with salt (which doesn't taste as good as fresh meat).

Around christmas time there is a day that marks the beginning of brighter times (the opposite of midsummer), something which pagans once celebrated.