Venezuela: Chavez wins 61% of the vote.....

[Total Warrior X]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6205128.stm

wow, what a laugher...and now he has new friends in Nicargua and Ecuador to play with...lol

[Farnan]

Didn't his opponents boycott the election?

[Total Warrior X]

Nope....they were really unified behind Manuel Rosales and they even thought they had a chance of winning.

Chavez 61% Rosales 38%

[Miraj]

Chavez 61% Rosales 38%

****. Man those rich Venezualans are probably crying right now, just as they pack up to leave the country.





Please refrain from evading the swear filter.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

****. Man those rich Venezualans are probably crying right now, just as they pack up to leave the country.

I can't wait till Sibs finds this thread to show you what is what.

[Last Roman]

I can't wait till Sibs finds this thread to show you what is what.

Indeed.

Chavez is bad news. A man who knows how to play the masses, a low and crude populist who can inspire fear of make believe enemies. sounds eerily familiar don't it...

But at least Bush has to leave and can't become basically a dictator like Chavez.

[Total Warrior X]

I can't wait till Sibs finds this thread to show you what is what.

This is Chavez's biggest victory, bigger than the recall referendum. I let this poll explain why.

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/client/...tb.pdf&id=3280

[Miraj]

I can't wait till Sibs finds this thread to show you what is what.

So Sib is going to show me that the anti-chavez party are actually happy that Chavez won? Whoa, I can't wait for this.

[danzig]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6205128.stm

wow, what a laugher...and now he has new friends in Nicargua and Ecuador to play with...lol

Wow you take such glee with the 'election' of a dictator?

****. Man those rich Venezualans are probably crying right now, just as they pack up to leave the country.

Or anyone who disagrees with Chavez....http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

[k995]

Wow you take such glee with the 'election' of a dictator?

Chavez isnt a dictator

Or anyone who disagrees with Chavez....http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

Yes 40% of the country is leaving

[ErikinWest]

Chaves is a crook and a criminal. He is bankrupting his country, doubling the debt, and causing inflation.

Obviously Mirage41 is completely ignorant of the world (or at least Venezuela); because he would know that the poverty rate under Chavez has increased!

He is another horrible populist leader that bleeds his country. With the exception of Chile, Latin America is not improving the lives of its people with its socialist institutions.

Erik

[Fenris]

It might not improve the situation of these contries economically (I actually haven't checked any figures about this, and sincerely do not care at the moment, being at the other side of the world from home) but at least what I can see is south america being able to get on their feet afterwards if the socialist movement doesn't get crazy like the anti-socialism movement in USA.

I am happy though that south america is becoming at last an active member of the political scene and not just america's backyard. So I am not defending him or his policies, but like Castro did, socialism is a tool for their independance. Now don't start saying ''but look how Cuba is now'', because that doesn't have much to do with the economical system.

But anyways, if USA start opposing firmly the socialism of south america and doesn't make... ideological concessions (which they will not I suspect), the opposition will only make the socialism down there grow bigger and stronger, and that is when it will only hurt these countries.

Because america has not learnt it yet, but the best way to make your opponents more extremist and more powerful, is to actually oppose them and try to impose your own way of thinking. I really don't think south america is necessarily ''socialist'' in the sense that they were not taken in the socialist movement of the cold war, nor they see it as soviet union did, as an ideal of political system. No, they took socialism as a flag that indicates their own sovereignty to the americans, they are pretty much like teenages who do what their parents don't want, only to oppose them and to show that they are independant. If the parents persist in opposing their children's choice, the child will get more extreme and more extreme, because making concessions on their choice would ''give reason to the parents''. That is why the parents should be open-minded, listen and be comprehensive so that the trend taken just fade by itself clearly by the teenage's own will. What happened with the muslim world looks a lot like this, but the subject is quite different, but the principles are the same.

That said, let south america go through they teenage crisis, be comprehensive, if they hurt themselves, they will learn by their own mistakes, and a liberalisation of the economy will then follow on stronger basis. If someone here is omniscient, we could have a bet, but I say that if america had just let Castro played in his corner, without any opposition or embargo like there has been, Cuba wouldn't be communist now. Kind of like China actually, americans didn't bother them too much, so they started liberalising their economy (but of course they don't admit it right now, they are still in the state of denial, even of the obvious, that the parents were right after all).

[Erik]

That said, let south america go through they teenage crisis, be comprehensive, if they hurt themselves, they will learn by their own mistakes, and a liberalisation of the economy will then follow on stronger basis.

I fully agree.
The people of Venezuela have chosen, and if their choice turns out to be a mistake they will choose differently the next time.
Politics is largely trial and error anyways.

The arrogance and hypocrisy of the West really needs to stop.
They talk about supporting democracy, but then complain about the outcome of elections.
They put great confidence in the ability of their own people to choose the best leader, yet they don't show the same confidence towards others.

[Siblesz]

I fully agree.
The people of Venezuela have chosen, and if their choice turns out to be a mistake they will choose differently the next time.
Politics is largely trial and error anyways.

The arrogance and hypocrisy of the West really needs to stop.
They talk about supporting democracy, but then complain about the outcome of elections.
They put great confidence in the ability of their own people to choose the best leader, yet they don't show the same confidence towards others.

Democracy is by far the WORST form of government. That is why neither the E.U. nor America are standard democracies. And why Venezuela was not a real democracy up until 1998. When a country embraces full democratic change, the radical wave that it brings about is more often damaging than not. For a perfect example, look at France, the prototype of the democratic ideal. Democracy is garbage. ESPECIALLY when you're dealing with an ignorant population like Venezuela's. But which population isn't ignorant? I mean... people in Europe LOVE Chavez. And I can't help but laugh at them.

[Erik]

Democracy is by far the WORST form of government. That is why neither the E.U. nor America are standard democracies.

The EU isn't democratic because it was set up as trade agreement ala NAFTA.

But most individual countries in Europe do have a democracy.
And overall democracy is working very well IMO, especially in small countries like mine.

When a country embraces full democratic change, the radical wave that it brings about is more often damaging than not. For a perfect example, look at France, the prototype of the democratic ideal.

What's wrong with France????

I mean... people in Europe LOVE Chavez.

Really?
We love Chavez? WTF???

Oh, I get it: we love Chavez like we love Saddam Hussein, Kim Young Il and Osama Bin Laden...all because we are "anti-Americans"

[Bwaho]

time for coup?

seriously though, what it comes down to is that the poor people vote for Chavez and the middleclass/overclass votes against him... guess venezuela has more poor people than rich.

if it were up to me, I'd bring Pinochet into the table, even though he's about to die. He's the only one that can fix this mess

He'll probably be alive long enough to be the front figure for the coup. Once he's in power you can put a darth vader-style suit on him and if he dies you can replace him without anyone knowing that he is dead!

[Siblesz]

He'll probably be alive long enough to be the front figure for the coup. Once he's in power you can put a darth vader-style suit on him and if he dies you can replace him without anyone knowing that he is dead!

El Cid style! I like it.

But I fear that Fidel has already taken that role.

[Total Warrior X]

Chaves is a crook and a criminal. He is bankrupting his country, doubling the debt, and causing inflation.

Obviously Mirage41 is completely ignorant of the world (or at least Venezuela); because he would know that the poverty rate under Chavez has increased!

He is another horrible populist leader that bleeds his country. With the exception of Chile, Latin America is not improving the lives of its people with its socialist institutions.

Erik

You might want to check the facts. Venezuela is far from being bankrupt, especially with the high oil prices. The debt is actually shrinking and the inflation rate, although still high, has been much lower under Chavez than past Presidents.

The poverty rate has actually decreased since Chavez took office (it did go up drastically briefly in 2002-2003). The World Bank confirms that the poverty rate in Venezuela has been cut by 10% in 10 years. That organization is headed by free maket neocon Paul Wolfowitz.

The left-wing governments in Latin America are currently outpacing economically, free market darlings such as Colombia, Mexico, and Guatemala. Argentina and Venezuela are the fastest growing economies. Take a look at Mexico right now...there is your free trade. Mexicans rather work in the US than Mexico. Colombians are also immigrating into Venezuela.

Chavez NEEDS to work on the crime problem though.

[TheKwas]

Chaves is a crook and a criminal. He is bankrupting his country

Erik

Chavez has been pumping out some pretty nice surpluses actually...
http://www.globalexchange.org/countr...uela/3666.html
"an expected balance of payments surplus of $3 billion this year and $4 billion projected for next year should allow the country to pay all its debt to the lenders.

Venezuela owes around $3 billion to the World Bank, the IADB and the Caracas-based multilateral Andean Development Corp. (CAF), another lender that Venezuela should pay in full, according to Cabezas."

doubling the debt

See above.

and causing inflation.

Wrong again.
http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocu...ela/vencpi.htm

Chavez came to power in 1999 by the way. The only time inflation increased under him was during the 2002 coup and oppisition-led strike that completely shut-down the economy.

the poverty rate under Chavez has increased!

True... to an extent.

"Critics also point to figures released by the president of the Venezuelan National Statistics Institute, Elías Eljuri, which showed that poverty had actually risen by more than 10 percentage points under Chávez (to 53% in 2004). [b]Chávez called for a new measure of poverty, a "social well-being index". Under this new definition, poverty registers at 40 percent.[119][b] Eljuri denies changing the statistic and claims it is [b]entirely income excluding social programs.[b][123] The World Bank calculated a 10% drop in poverty[124]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez


As far as being a dictator, there's some truth that he has authortarian tendencies (them being the thing I dislike most about Chavez), but they are generally overstated. People talk about him changing the constitution to allow him more terms. However, they rarely mention that these will be terms that he will served as an elected leader.
Canada, for example, as no limit on terms for Prime ministers (and Mackenzie has served for something like 22 years in total), yet no one would reasonablely label a Canadian Prime Minister a dictator. Not even Trudeau (who was the second-longest serving Prime minister I believe).

[danzig]

As far as being a dictator, there's some truth that he has authortarian tendencies (them being the thing I dislike most about Chavez), but they are generally overstated. People talk about him changing the constitution to allow him more terms. However, they rarely mention that these will be terms that he will served as an elected leader.
Canada, for example, as no limit on terms for Prime ministers (and Mackenzie has served for something like 22 years in total), yet no one would reasonablely label a Canadian Prime Minister a dictator. Not even Trudeau (who was the second-longest serving Prime minister I believe).

A better comparison would be this, before 2006 election results what if republicans were pushing for lifting of presidental limits here in the US with Bush in office? Right away the claims would be made that Bush was trying to seize control of the US...doing so in the US however would be nearly impossible not so in Venezuela. When one acts in an authorian way and then one pushes forward with acts that make it easier to engage in those acts huge warning lights go off. Look at Chavez now talking about shutting down privately owned tv stations who broadcast 'subversive' programming. I dont think its being overstated at all.