Yet another thread complaining about bugged crossbows on sieges

[primalsplit]

Hello guys, I have searched far and wide and I know it's probably me lacking in research skills; but if I had solved my problem, I wouldn't ask for help this way.

So basically, these crossbow guys are just bugged as it appears. Very few of them shoot at enemy while on walls at targets both outside my walls and inside my walls. Even if they are on the ground and the enemy are at the walls, most of them seem to have difficulties using their main weapons. Basically, this makes them incredibly useless on sieges.

So what I did? I tried to edit descr_projectile.txt to reduce minimum velocity, in a hope to make them work as archers. Crossbows aiming similar to archers might be unrealistic, but it's definitely a lesser evil compared to crossbows that don't even shoot at all.

For example, below is my modified version of crossbow bolt stats:
projectile steel_crossbow_bolt


effect crossbow_steel_arrows_new_set
end_effect bolt_impact_ground_set
end_man_effect man_impact_tiny_set
end_package_effect bolt_impact_wall_set
end_shatter_effect bolt_impact_ground_set
end_shatter_man_effect man_impact_tiny_set
end_shatter_package_effect bolt_impact_wall_set


damage 0
radius 0.075
mass 0.14
accuracy_vs_units 0.065
min_angle -80
max_angle 70
velocity 21 55
display aimed
effect_only

But still, this doesn't seem to do anything much. They still behave the same way. Are there any problems here? I want my crossbows to act like bows on occassion. 21 min velocity is the velocity of some arrows. Or is it because I need to create a new game to see it's benefits?
Any help would be appreciated, because the way I see it; stainless steel is a great mod, but this is a bug that needs to be solved. It is a red priority bug in fact. With this, the whole immersion and sense of realism goes straight away. As HRE, crossbowmen play a large role in my strategy.

[paleologos]

Two things you need to check.
One is to make sure that the type of crossbow bolt you modified and the type of crossbow bolt your test unit uses are the same.
The other is to make sure that your game did not "re-modify" your descr_projectile.txt file to the SS6.4 default one.

[primalsplit]

Two things you need to check.
One is to make sure that the type of crossbow bolt you modified and the type of crossbow bolt your test unit uses are the same.
The other is to make sure that your game did not "re-modify" your descr_projectile.txt file to the SS6.4 default one.

I have modified all crossbow_bolt types to something similar. None was spared. As for the second issue, how can I be sure the game does not re-modify my files? I always check the .txt files and they always stay the same.

jurcek, thanks. I'll also keep that in mind. But still, crossbows should be useful in non-horizontally paralel angles too in my opinion. Even levy archers are more useful than pavise crossbowmen when it's like this.

[jurcek1987]

Don't know about your problem but I can tell you that xbows are extremely effective in sieges if used like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In case they get attacked, put them in guard mode and target the enemy units manually, that way the first line will use swords but others will continue shooting.

[paleologos]

Try setting the radius to 0.1

[Dekhatres]

i remember i did something similar, you need to change more stats not just one, change the radius, min max angle and velocity, just copy the stats from longbowmen, it should work, if it dosent change them all

EDIT: accuracy definitely has nothing to do with it while mass afaik only slows down enemy advancing units

[primalsplit]

Sorry for the late reply I was a bit carried away.
Ok guys. It works and works to great effect! But now the game crashes at the end of my turn lol.

[Dekhatres]

Sorry for the late reply I was a bit carried away.
Ok guys. It works and works to great effect! But now the game crashes at the end of my turn lol.

i am 99% sure changes in decr_projectile are savegame compatible so you definitely messed up something else, try see what the system.log says, or just do a fresh reinstall and be careful what you change this time

just to be sure i am gona check it myself too

EDIT: no crashes for me after changing only the radius min/max angle and velocity

[primalsplit]

Yes I know. It's probably something else. By the way crash occured at the end of my turn after I made 2 long siege battles. Luckily, I have documented every change I have made and made backups of my files. I am not even sure if the issue is related with my modifications.
The changes I have made so far:
descr_engines.txt:


Tortoise ram health reduced (-80)
tortoise ram damage reduced (-6)
tortoise ram ignition chance increased (+0.1)




descr_walls.txt:


gate medium_reinforced full_health increased from 400 to 700
gate huge_reinforced full_health increased from 400 to 750
gate medium_iron full_health increased from 450 to 900
gate huge_iron full_health increased from 500 to 1000


reload_ms values for arrows have been drastically reduced, to make towers and gatehouse fire much more projectiles.
reload_ms values also get lower, the better walls you have.
flaming_reload_ms values are also nearly halved.
ballista reload_ms values have been halved. flaming_reload_ms values also have been halved
cannon reload_ms values have been halved. flaming_reload_ms values also have been halved.
fire_angle for gatehouses have been set to 1 (this did not make the murder hole effect I was dreaming of)

[Dekhatres]

Yes I know. It's probably something else. By the way crash occured at the end of my turn after I made 2 long siege battles. Luckily, I have documented every change I have made and made backups of my files. I am not even sure if the issue is related with my modifications.
The changes I have made so far:
descr_engines.txt:


Tortoise ram health reduced (-80)
tortoise ram damage reduced (-6)
tortoise ram ignition chance increased (+0.1)




descr_walls.txt:


gate medium_reinforced full_health increased from 400 to 700
gate huge_reinforced full_health increased from 400 to 750
gate medium_iron full_health increased from 450 to 900
gate huge_iron full_health increased from 500 to 1000


reload_ms values for arrows have been drastically reduced, to make towers and gatehouse fire much more projectiles.
reload_ms values also get lower, the better walls you have.
flaming_reload_ms values are also nearly halved.
ballista reload_ms values have been halved. flaming_reload_ms values also have been halved
cannon reload_ms values have been halved. flaming_reload_ms values also have been halved.
fire_angle for gatehouses have been set to 1 (this did not make the murder hole effect I was dreaming of)

i messed around with walls and gates hp fire rate and damage too a while back and got loads of errors and ctds, some settlement models on campaign map were gone etc, cant really help

there should be a "logs" folder inside your med2tw folder, look inside and there should be a "system.log" open it and see what it says, might find the problem

[TheBard]

The real problem is that the crenelations don't work correctly. I've wondered what would happen if you just removed all the crenelations so that there was no covering wall in front of where the defenders stand? Is that even moddable? If so, I'm assuming that would make attacking archers way too effective?
Assuming it is moddable, what about making the outer wall just come up to waist height of the defenders all the way around (no crenelations)? Would that provide some defense and still allow the defenders to fire normally?

Anyone know the answers to these?

[Dekhatres]

The real problem is that the crenelations don't work correctly. I've wondered what would happen if you just removed all the crenelations so that there was no covering wall in front of where the defenders stand? Is that even moddable? If so, I'm assuming that would make attacking archers way too effective?
Assuming it is moddable, what about making the outer wall just come up to waist height of the defenders all the way around (no crenelations)? Would that provide some defense and still allow the defenders to fire normally?

Anyone know the answers to these?

both attacker and defender archers would be too effective, the crenelations work corectly i'd say, it is realistic that not all archers can fire in a straight line because not all can see the enemy

as for if it's moddable i've never seen such thing or even attempts at doing this, you might have better luck asking someone who is experienced in making custom battle settlements and buildings

[+Marius+]

My bad for not replying to this thread earlier.

It is actually a very easy fix, the issue with the angle is mostly because of the velocity value.

So what you need to do is edit the value to perhaps this;

velocity 20 80

...and then you should get this;




- crossbows effective on the walls

Crossbows aiming similar to archers might be unrealistic

Crossbow bolts were actually more inclined to be used in an angle than arrows, because arrows usually weighed much less and were thus hampered by air resistance to a much greater degree.

Most arrows were 400 - 1000 grains while crossbow bolts went up to 3200-3500 grains, that is why, of the very few depictions of upwards shooting we have, most depict crossbows;

[primalsplit]

Well, the crash happened after one of my large castles (Hamburg - Fortress) was besieged. AFTER the whole battle was finished and the turn has ended, the game crashed. Well I auto-resolved this time, but for the next time I will enable logs (I have just seen it in the forum, sorry). For now, I make do.

Now I have started my personal crusade against descr_diplomacy.xml. I swear it feels more like picking up a girl than dealing diplomaticly with a kingdom.

[primalsplit]

Ok I'm not sure if double posting is ok, but where is the edit button? I have searched for it a hundred times!
Thanks for your reply Marius. I already had it covered thanks to the earlier replies. Crossbows are not standing idly on walls anymore (whoever thought that was a good idea should question their lives). It's really nice to know that it was a used method. Radius also seems to help with the accuracy as the projectile's effect is increased, though I have not tested it yet and I don't want crossbows to be way too powerful compared to archers. Maybe I may need to use it on gunpowder units later on when it is invented in my campaign and if arqebus units act in a similar fashion. Heh. I bet THAT won't be historically and realistically accurate if they shoot at an angle.

I don't really know what I should do here, as this xbow issue has come to an end for me (and hopefully any readers). I have other battles now, the ones I have on siege balance and diplomacy. I am trying to make it so that siege battles will favor defenders a lot more and I have achieved that by making towers shoot twice as much projectiles.
The thing is, if we are to continue in this thread; my gatehouses don't work the way I initially planned. Normally the fire angle for gatehouses is 90, similar to that of towers (100). I set it up to 1 in a hope to make them use those murder holes to shoot at soldiers manning the battering ram, when they are at my gate battering it. I don't think gatehouse shoots arrows at all right now. Can this be achieved? I'm not really sure, but it sure is not realistic to take the walls of constantinople with a simple battering ram or two. Very immersion breaking indeed.
The other is, as I said, diplomacy. The AI behaves like a spoiled children or an extremely emotional person. While in truth, it should behave like a diehard pragmatist... maybe with a little relations mixed in to represent public opinion. At the moment, it feels as if emotion dictates everything. I have found a great tutorial, but if you have any suggestions then you are more than welcome of course!

[Dekhatres]

you can edit only after 15 or 20 posts i think


hm... the ram scene from kingdom of heaven just went through my mind and i was thinking maybe you could restore the fire angle of gatehoue back to original and then make them shoot naffatun instead of arrows, they should definitely kill some of the guys operating the ram, or try and find how to change boiling oil damage, might be hardcoded tho

EDIT: works like a charm, you just might want to reduce the fire rate cause the soldiers needed to operate the ram get killed constantly and dosent allow the enemy to start ramming, all you have to do is to change "arrow" to "nahptha_bomb" to all gatehouses, the towers will still shoot arrows

[primalsplit]

Dekhrates that's really a wonderful idea! But is it a must that we use nahptha? Maybe a new type of projectile can be added to work like a nahphta bomb in flight, but function like an arrow? I believe we may work around this.

Also, some testing with diplomacy revealed that it is already acting nicely most of the time!

[Dekhatres]

Dekhrates that's really a wonderful idea! But is it a must that we use nahptha? Maybe a new type of projectile can be added to work like a nahphta bomb in flight, but function like an arrow? I believe we may work around this.

Also, some testing with diplomacy revealed that it is already acting nicely most of the time!

you can use whatever you want, even greek fire, i know someone made his towers shoot greek fire a while ago so i think it works too, use the edu or descr_projectile to find what type of weapon you need

dunno what you mean with "nahpta bomb in flight but function like an arrow" you will have to explain more

[primalsplit]

What I mean is, there is going to be a min velocity for the projectile. So if I set arrow and set the fire angle at 90, it will not shoot at close targets. Meanwhile nahphta bomb can only be thrown at closer enemies because of the way it's projectile behaves.
If I change the gatehouse's projectile to nahphta bomb, wouldn't it work like a nahphta bomb upon impact?

So what is possibly the best is, to maybe add a projectiles that looks like an arrow and has an impact like an arrow; while it travels like a nahphta bomb so it hits the close targets.

[Dekhatres]

changing arrow to nahpta_bomb will ONLY affect the small shooting holes above the gate, NOT the towers, with angle of 90 my gatehouse does keep shooting no matter what projectile i use

only the men using the ram will get shot by nahptas and only when they reach the gate with the ram

i dont know how to add a new projectile

just looking throught descr_projectile i see at end "super_banana" and "banana_bomb", i checked the edu and this kind of projectile is not used by any unit
you could use those to have the desired projectile, give it the looks of an arrow but make it behave like nahpta bomb, not sure it's safe however