Temples in Roma Surrectum

[Tyr]

Temples in Roma Surrectum

First things first. I know dvk901, that you dislike the whole idea; find too many temples pointless and a waste of time. But when reading your description for Arethusa; I thought it was very interesting how you gave background information, the myth etc. Much better than CA’s short descriptions that only informed you what they were god of, and not much else.

So I thought it could be a good idea to expand all the Greek temples in this way. (I say only Greek, because information is readily available, and only the smallest amount of research has to be done. It is also the largest cultural group in the game as well as having –in my opinion– the most interesting mythology). Now I understand that this will be at the bottom of a to-do list, as only a small number of people would appreciate it; but for a small change, it adds a good deal of depth to the game; and think the suggestion deserves some consideration.

I think a few new temples could also be added, namely Poseidon and Apollo. It would be great if these two important (and very cool) Gods were implemented. I do not understand why CA did not include temples to these important gods originally.

Temples of Syracuse
Currently Syracuse can build temples to Zeus and Arethusa. I’d suggest increasing this, to make them more varied:
• Arethusa
• Zeus

• Persephone
• Dionysius
• Hephaestus
• Poseidon

I know what your thinking, 6 temples is ridiculous, yet here me out. Two are unique (or should be) to Syracuse, Persephone and Arethusa, and both should be limited so they can only be constructed in Sicily. As for the temple of Poseidon, it should only be able to be built if the settlement has a port. So that means Syracuse would only have Zeus, Hephaestus, and Dionysius available to build in all settlements.
And I’m not suggesting that all factions have as many temples to build as Syracuse. Syracuse, being a Greek City state should have something unique about it, and that’s the reason why (as well as half their temples having preconditions before they can be built) I think the faction deserves a wider selection of temples.


The reasoning for Persephone:
Persephone was abducted by Hades near Enna in the Sicilian hinterland. The island of Sicily itself was loved by Persephone’s mother (Demeter) because of its fertility and abundant grain.

From Plutarch’s Life of Timoleon
“After the fleet had been made ready and the soldiers completely equipped, the priestesses of Persephone dreamed that they saw the goddess and her mother preparing for a journey and heard them say that they intended to sail with Timoleon to Sicily.”

Further on in the passage it states;
“… for Sicily was sacred to Persephone: it was the scene of her mythical rape by Hades, and the island was presented to her as a wedding gift.”

Further research in to this, and I discovered that some versions actually hold that the rape was near where Syracuse was sighted, others that it actually happened by the springs of Arethusa.

The reasoning for Dionysius:
Dionysus so the story goes, came across a strange, unknown plant during his voyage to Sicily. Curious, he took an example with him and on arrival planted it. The plant was of course the grape vine.

I think this makes Dionysius suited to the Syracusans. But on top of this we have the fact that the tyrannies of Syracuse were known for there luxury and lavishness; so it would be rather fitting for Syracuse to be able to build a temple for Dionysius.

The reasoning for Hephaestus:
When the Greeks colonised Sicily and Southern Italy, Hephaestus was believed to have his forge in Mount Etna; where they identified him with the Sicel god Adranus (A god of fire and war who’s temple was said to have been guarded by a hundred sacred dogs and have an eternal fire, or according to Aelian, about a thousand sacred dogs). Other accounts hold it that Adranus was driven out by Hephaestus from Mt.Etna.

The reasoning for Poseidon:
Well, there isn’t really a mythical connection between Sicily and Poseidon (other than Charybdis, his daughter, being located near the island), but I thought as the emphasis on Syracuse as being a naval power (with trade bonuses for every island in the Mediterranean ), the sea god would be a fitting temple for them to build.

Of course, the gods Hephaestus and Dionysius are already in the game, so only a slight alteration of descriptions would be needed, so you could include some mythical background to the gods. By adding Persephone, only build-able by Syracuse (as well as Arethusa), would give this faction a unique flair. Like I said, the Poseidon temple, could be made available to a selection of Greek factions, (as well as Apollo) I was surprised that CA didn’t have them in anyway, as I mentioned before.

So, what do you think, any comments, suggestions, scalding insults?

N.B The reason I have gone over the Syracusan religion here is that I’m currently playing Syracuse in Roma Surrectum, have always had an interest in the City; and already possessed some degree of knowledge on the subject. It there’s enough response here, or if these suggestions are adopted, I’d happily research Pergamum and the Bosporan Kingdom; seeing what myths tied in with there history and what God received the focus of their worship.

[cherryfunk]

On the temple issue, I have two main thoughts:

IF the temples confer bonuses beyond just order/happiness (for example, boost population growth for Aphrodite, more experienced soldiers for Mars, etc.), then I like the idea of restricting each city to one temple. As I see it, what this is doing is representing a general culture for that particular community.

For example, the city-state of Sparta clearly had a military-oriented culture, so it produced better military units. In the game, letting them have a temple of Mars and get that bonus is representing this cultural proclivity. Likewise, a temple to a sea-god like Poseidon would represent a cultural affinity for seafaring, and deliver a bonus to ships or sea trade. I actually kind of like using temples this way, since it lets a bit of cultural variety slip into the game. However, I think the more temples you can offer, the better, so the player really has some options when considering which cultural direction he wants the city to lean in.

On the other hand, if the temples are not confering any bonuses beyond happiness/order, then I like the way RTR handles it -- letting you build as many temples as you like in each city, but reducing the happiness bonus of each individual temple so the overall impact isn't unbalancing to gameplay. This simulates the pan-theistic religious mentality of the period, and also slows down city growth, since you have to build 2 or 3 buildings to get the same bonus you used to get with just 1.

So I say either give the temples bonuses beyond happiness/order, and restrict them to one per city, or reduce the happiness bonus and let the player build as many as they like in each city.

[dvk901]

On the temple issue, I have two main thoughts:

IF the temples confer bonuses beyond just order/happiness (for example, boost population growth for Aphrodite, more experienced soldiers for Mars, etc.), then I like the idea of restricting each city to one temple. As I see it, what this is doing is representing a general culture for that particular community.

For example, the city-state of Sparta clearly had a military-oriented culture, so it produced better military units. In the game, letting them have a temple of Mars and get that bonus is representing this cultural proclivity. Likewise, a temple to a sea-god like Poseidon would represent a cultural affinity for seafaring, and deliver a bonus to ships or sea trade. I actually kind of like using temples this way, since it lets a bit of cultural variety slip into the game. However, I think the more temples you can offer, the better, so the player really has some options when considering which cultural direction he wants the city to lean in.

On the other hand, if the temples are not confering any bonuses beyond happiness/order, then I like the way RTR handles it -- letting you build as many temples as you like in each city, but reducing the happiness bonus of each individual temple so the overall impact isn't unbalancing to gameplay. This simulates the pan-theistic religious mentality of the period, and also slows down city growth, since you have to build 2 or 3 buildings to get the same bonus you used to get with just 1.

So I say either give the temples bonuses beyond happiness/order, and restrict them to one per city, or reduce the happiness bonus and let the player build as many as they like in each city.

Dang!! Now I gotta figure something else out. How the heck did they let you build more than one? I thought it was hardcoded?

[dvk901]

Temples in Roma Surrectum

First things first. I know dvk901, that you dislike the whole idea; find too many temples pointless and a waste of time. But when reading your description for Arethusa; I thought it was very interesting how you gave background information, the myth etc. Much better than CA’s short descriptions that only informed you what they were god of, and not much else.

So I thought it could be a good idea to expand all the Greek temples in this way. (I say only Greek, because information is readily available, and only the smallest amount of research has to be done. It is also the largest cultural group in the game as well as having –in my opinion– the most interesting mythology). Now I understand that this will be at the bottom of a to-do list, as only a small number of people would appreciate it; but for a small change, it adds a good deal of depth to the game; and think the suggestion deserves some consideration.

I think a few new temples could also be added, namely Poseidon and Apollo. It would be great if these two important (and very cool) Gods were implemented. I do not understand why CA did not include temples to these important gods originally.

Temples of Syracuse
Currently Syracuse can build temples to Zeus and Arethusa. I’d suggest increasing this, to make them more varied:
• Arethusa
• Zeus

• Persephone
• Dionysius
• Hephaestus
• Poseidon

I know what your thinking, 6 temples is ridiculous, yet here me out. Two are unique (or should be) to Syracuse, Persephone and Arethusa, and both should be limited so they can only be constructed in Sicily. As for the temple of Poseidon, it should only be able to be built if the settlement has a port. So that means Syracuse would only have Zeus, Hephaestus, and Dionysius available to build in all settlements.
And I’m not suggesting that all factions have as many temples to build as Syracuse. Syracuse, being a Greek City state should have something unique about it, and that’s the reason why (as well as half their temples having preconditions before they can be built) I think the faction deserves a wider selection of temples.


The reasoning for Persephone:
Persephone was abducted by Hades near Enna in the Sicilian hinterland. The island of Sicily itself was loved by Persephone’s mother (Demeter) because of its fertility and abundant grain.

From Plutarch’s Life of Timoleon
“After the fleet had been made ready and the soldiers completely equipped, the priestesses of Persephone dreamed that they saw the goddess and her mother preparing for a journey and heard them say that they intended to sail with Timoleon to Sicily.”

Further on in the passage it states;
“… for Sicily was sacred to Persephone: it was the scene of her mythical rape by Hades, and the island was presented to her as a wedding gift.”

Further research in to this, and I discovered that some versions actually hold that the rape was near where Syracuse was sighted, others that it actually happened by the springs of Arethusa.

The reasoning for Dionysius:
Dionysus so the story goes, came across a strange, unknown plant during his voyage to Sicily. Curious, he took an example with him and on arrival planted it. The plant was of course the grape vine.

I think this makes Dionysius suited to the Syracusans. But on top of this we have the fact that the tyrannies of Syracuse were known for there luxury and lavishness; so it would be rather fitting for Syracuse to be able to build a temple for Dionysius.

The reasoning for Hephaestus:
When the Greeks colonised Sicily and Southern Italy, Hephaestus was believed to have his forge in Mount Etna; where they identified him with the Sicel god Adranus (A god of fire and war who’s temple was said to have been guarded by a hundred sacred dogs and have an eternal fire, or according to Aelian, about a thousand sacred dogs). Other accounts hold it that Adranus was driven out by Hephaestus from Mt.Etna.

The reasoning for Poseidon:
Well, there isn’t really a mythical connection between Sicily and Poseidon (other than Charybdis, his daughter, being located near the island), but I thought as the emphasis on Syracuse as being a naval power (with trade bonuses for every island in the Mediterranean ), the sea god would be a fitting temple for them to build.

Of course, the gods Hephaestus and Dionysius are already in the game, so only a slight alteration of descriptions would be needed, so you could include some mythical background to the gods. By adding Persephone, only build-able by Syracuse (as well as Arethusa), would give this faction a unique flair. Like I said, the Poseidon temple, could be made available to a selection of Greek factions, (as well as Apollo) I was surprised that CA didn’t have them in anyway, as I mentioned before.

So, what do you think, any comments, suggestions, scalding insults?

N.B The reason I have gone over the Syracusan religion here is that I’m currently playing Syracuse in Roma Surrectum, have always had an interest in the City; and already possessed some degree of knowledge on the subject. It there’s enough response here, or if these suggestions are adopted, I’d happily research Pergamum and the Bosporan Kingdom; seeing what myths tied in with there history and what God received the focus of their worship.

DVK: I will implement anything you want, Tyr. You're my historian. Remember?
But do this for me if you would, because I am so hard pressed for time. Research the temples, come up with some good descriptions for them (and who should have them), and I will put it all in the game....at least, as much as I can. I've had difficulty adding 'building trees' to the game, so I really can't add to what's there already. But what I can do is add/change the descriptions of existing temples...even those specifically barbarian or eastern.....so that they can also be Greek temples. There are quite a few... in fact, a whole bunch of them. I may not be able to restrict them to a specific place (otherwise, the sharing factions couldn't build theirs), but I'm more than willing to put anything historic and meaningful in this mod.

After I wrote the description for Arethusa I thought 'this is actually pretty cool!' I think the reason I had little use for them was because CA's descriptions are boring and lack any depth of understanding. How many times does one just 'overlook' the descriptions of anything in RTW after you've seen the same old crap a thousand times, and it was boring in the first place?

Information about this era just brings the game to life more. That's why I've been adding buildings where I can, implementing units stuff where suggested, and took such pains to include the histories of the Legions.

[Tyr]

DVK: I will implement anything you want, Tyr. You're my historian. Remember?
But do this for me if you would, because I am so hard pressed for time. Research the temples, come up with some good descriptions for them (and who should have them)

Thankyou, and I'll work on it straight away. But it would be better if the temples could be added; and not just replace existing ones; is there no way that this is possible.

[dvk901]

Thankyou, and I'll work on it straight away. But it would be better if the temples could be added; and not just replace existing ones; is there no way that this is possible.

By using currently barbarian or eastern temples I can effectively 'add' them to greek cultures.

[Tyr]

But that will detract from the Barbarian factions, cant you add new temples at all, without affecting the status of others? Because once I had finished with Greeks, I had thought about doing the Germans as well. And may I ask what temple you replaced to put Arethusa in?

[dvk901]

But that will detract from the Barbarian factions, cant you add new temples at all, without affecting the status of others? Because once I had finished with Greeks, I had thought about doing the Germans as well. And may I ask what temple you replaced to put Arethusa in?

No, you misunderstand. Every temple in RTW has at least three levels of buildings, most have five (the more advanced cultures). Any of these temples has a cultural line for each culture..so all five cultures can build the temple, but the five different entry lines in Export_buildings.txt allows you to create different temple descriptions for each culture. So all five cultures may build off the same temple building tree, just the descriptions are different, and of course, what shows on the battle map according to culture. That's why I didn't allow briton to build 'greek' temples, although their culture is greek.

There are certain temples in RTW that only the barbarian culture or the eastern or roman culture can build....but only because it's set up that way. You can add any description you want for another culture and just add them to the 'factions required' statement in EDB.txt. (Go into 'export_buildings.txt' in the text folder and do a search for 'temple'...you'll see that a lot of cultures have no entry in a building tree...it will just say 'WARNING! This text should never appear on screen!' The reason it shouldn't appear is because the culture supposedly can't build it. But you can still add it.

Also, in case you didn't know, you can have 9 buildings in a building tree. Nothing in RTW went above 5. So how I add buildings is just tack them onto existing building trees. For instance, the 'Great Altar' in Pergamum is actually a temple...I just added it to one of the trees and allowed only Pergamum to build it.

As I looked at EDB.txt a bit ago, I remember you saying 'limit a temple to a port city', so it would be no big job to add a 'temple' to the end of the ports building tree and let all five cultures build it. Five different cultures could then build it with five different descriptions. The problem is, you can only restrict where it's built with a restriction that applies to everyone. So I couldn't allow the temple to only be built in Sicily unless you didn't want anyone else to build it. You can, however, add multiple restrictions (AORs, actually), that would allow everyone to build it only in certain places they own or capture.

So there's a lot of possiblity, and they can be handled like the Big Harbors, which can only be built in certain cities, and have a special bonus that applies ONLY to that city...nowhere else.

As for the Temple of Arethusa, I did just what I explained above. Put a description for a 'greek' temple in a barbarian or eastern temple building tree. They can still build theirs, but now Syracuse can built one there to. But if you were to let Epirus build it, it would still have to be the Temple of Arethusa. So don't worry..no one will lose anything.

Besides, my take on the information you're finding is that it's a whole lot BETTER than CA's info, so some of the temple descriptions you come up with could replace theirs.

[Tyr]

Ahhh...how embarassing, stupid me and my limited modding knowledge! That problem fully explained I will commence with my temple describing work!

n.b, not sure if this helps for my suggestion about tying a temple to a port; but in RTW vanilla, the Scipii could only build a temple of neptune if the settlement had a port; and so thought it would be fitting if Posideon was also tied to a port.

[Tyr]

What do you think of this. This is not the final version, I just wanted to see what you thought of the format, and especially the length of the description. The myths are so interesting you could get carried away; and I had to stop myself from including all that I wanted.

Ares

Ares is the Greek God of War. Not to be confused with the Roman Mars, Ares is far from popular with the other Olympian Gods and he is no heroic figure. Ares is unconcerned who wins or loses in battle, as long as blood is shed, and he does not care how victory is achieved, heroic or otherwise. In battle he is followed by many companions, including Deimos (Terror) and Phobos (Fear), his children by Aphrodite, Enyo (Horror) his sister; and Eris (Goddess of Strife and Discord, instigator of the Trojan War).

He was loved by Aphrodite, and he repeatedly deceived Hephaestus, his brother, by making love with his beautiful wife. The sun god Helios saw them, and revealed the affair to Hephaestus, who forged a net to catch the two lovers in the act; and when he did he invited the Olympian gods and goddesses to view the unfortunate pair. For the sake of modesty, the goddesses refused, but the male gods went and witnessed the sight; to the great embarrassment of Ares and Aphrodite.

Ares had many children, some of which were rivals of Heracles, as was Ares himself. Ares bore a hatred for Heracles, for he slew several of his children, raped his daughter Hippolyta, queen of the Amazons; and was himself wounded by Heracles. Twice Ares would have killed him if were not for the intervention of Zeus and Athena.

There were few worship sites in Greece, as few people wished to invoke war. Ares enjoyed his strongest worship in the northern limits of the Greek world, especially in Thrace where his sons Thrax and Biston once dwelt. In Sparta there was a statue of the god in chains, to show that the spirit of war and victory was never to leave the city.


For Comparison this is the vanilla description:

This Large Temple is dedicated to Ares, the Greek God of War. Ares is not an entirely heroic figure in the same way as the Roman Mars, but he is a god for winners in warfare. Sneaky and underhand are just as valid as heroic for Ares!

And for Comparison concerning length, heres dvk901s description for Arethusa

In Greek mythology, Arethusa was a nymph connected with a spring or fountain. And, not surprisingly, Arethusa's has a legendary association with water. According to one popular version of the legend, the lovely nymph Arethusa was a companion of the goddess Artemis. The nymph, like the goddess she followed, loved nothing more than to wander freely in forest and field, enjoying the beauty of nature. Arethusa noticed a shimmering river during the course of her adventures, and, beckoned by the promise of a refreshing bath, she decided to take a dip in the welcoming water. But as soon as she entered the river, she realized that she was not alone. For the god of this particular river (who was named Alpheius or Alpheus) was roused by the sight of Arethusa, and immediately fell in love with the nymph.

Arethusa, however, wanted nothing to do with the passionate river god. She was a maiden, and like Artemis, she preferred to remain chaste. So Arethusa fled the advances of Alpheus. However, Alpheus was not so easily deterred - the god of the river simply assumed the form of a hunter and pursued his chosen prey. Some versions of the story say that Arethusa was chased over the sea, all the way to Sicily. Finally, she found refuge on the Island of Ortygia (which is near Syracuse), where she called upon the goddess Artemis to rescue her. Artemis responded by transforming the nymph into a spring or fountain. And this is how the nymph Arethusa became identified with a now legendary spring.

This Shrine can be improved as the settlement grows in size and importance

Obviously, this is the main description, and not the short one. So, What do you think?

[dvk901]

Perfect, the length is reasonable, and the content makes CA's description look stupid. I like it!!

[Tyr]

Perfect, the length is reasonable, and the content makes CA's description look stupid. I like it!!

Thats great, I was worried you might think it was too long. I'll aim to keep all descriptions at a similar length; defintley not much longer anyway.

[dvk901]

I've implemented the Temple of Ares and description for patch4 (which I'm just working on while we wait for King Rick). It is a shared temple with Dacia, but according to the description, should be built by Thrace\Bosporan and only in Sparta (by Greek_cities).

[Tyr]

Good to here, wow; my first contribution to Roma Surrectum!!
I'm working on the other ones, and have completed quite a few. I wont post them individually, but all together; so rest assured; If it goes quiet here and I dont post, its not because I'm not doing them! I could possibly be finshed by this weekened.

[fguerin]

Hi guys,

dvk, why isn't there a Mars temple available for Romans? These warmonger people were Mars worshipers, even a meeting hall was named in his honour "Campo Marsius".

Have a nice day,

François

[dvk901]

We're workin' on the Temples. When I converted the two roman factions scipii and julii, they took their temples with them....so the temples are, by and large, screwed up with a few exceptions. Tyr is going to do some work on them and hopefully they will get better.

[Tyr]

Just a quick update, to let you know I'm still working on things.
Ares, Artemis, Demeter, Dionysus, Hephaestus & Zeus are finished. On top of that I've finshed the description for the three new Gods, Apollo, Poseidon and Persephone. With the inclusion of Apollo and Poseidon 9 of the 12 Olympians will now be represented. The missing two are:

Hades: who was rarely worshipped (Games for the God were only held every 100 years or so!) and there is only one known temple (which was only priests were allowed in to), and when when greeks did pray to him it was usually in connection with Persephone and Demeter.

Hestia: Godess of home & Hearth. Though most major greek cities had some sort of worship for her, she has no distinct personallity; and is not mentioned in any Myths; other than being the one of the children of Cronus and Rhea who Cronus swalllowed before Zeus's uprising.

I've researched where the Gods were worshipped and so have also written down what temples Pergamum and the Bosporan Kingdom and a few other factions should be able to build.

But I still have abit left to do: Asklepios, Athena, Aphrodite, Hermes, Heracles, & Nike!!!