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  1. #1
    TheKwas's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Ethics of War

    I had to write a short essay (4 pages) on a contraversial topic for school and decided on the topic of War ethics where I would argue that 'terrorist' acts of war are ethically indifferent from acts of war of the conventional sort. I figured that it might be worth some conversation, so tell me what you think.

    It should also be noted that I don't neccessarly believe everything written below.

    ---------------------------------
    The modern age is an age of supposed conflict enlightenment. Now any deliberate targeting of civilians is considered unethical to the core, no matter the cause or end goal the attackers fight for. The only fair game in conflicts is military targets, or more specifically anyone in a uniform. The dividing line between those of the civilized and enlightened world and those of the savage, deplorable and immoral world is based on the conflict means used by the two groups rather than the ideals or causes they may be fighting for. However, this dividing line between moral and immoral means is logically faulty. The ethics of both terrorist acts of war—defined as deliberate attacks on civilians—and the ethics of conventional acts of war—defined as deliberately attacking military targets only—are nearly identical.

    To illustrate the ethical background of both strategies, lets imagine a hypothetical situation that is realistic and yet vague enough that it is applicable to many real-life scenarios. Let us say that there is a military force from another country that is enforcing an injustice (let us also pretend that all readers of this essay can agree that whatever this military is doing is unjust), and there is a group of militants that are fighting against this injustice and for a just cause. Within this hypothetical case, the individuals who defend the moral superiority of attacking military personnel over civilians argue that the military are the enforcers of the injustice at hand and since the military personnel choose of their own free will to be in the military they are directly responsible for military actions and this hypothetical injustice. This view is naïve for a number of reasons. It views military personnel as mere tools extensions of the state and/or the ruling elite that decide military action; rather than as the normal human beings that they are who are just doing their jobs.

    It also implies that the individuals that join the military are to be considered conscious supporters of the injustice at hand, but really all they did was join the army. Nearly every country views a standing army, even in times of peace, to be necessity; a safe assumption to make would be that the majority of individuals feel the same way too. If supporting your military, through either joining it or supporting its existence politically, makes you directly responsible for its actions, then the majority of the civilian-hood can be held directly responsible for any injustices it may enforce just as the men in uniform are. These rank-and-file soldiers are not able to choose what tours they take and what causes they support throughout the world, just as the majority of the civilian-hood are not, so it seems silly to hold them directly accountable for whatever injustices they are told to enforce. At this point one may raise the argument that the military personnel had the option to refuse duty when posted to a job determined ‘unjust’, but such refusal would have come at the very hefty price of imprisonment or exile. They are coerced into it and have little real choice. Why is the life of a soldier valued less to the point where it is more ethical to kill him than other human beings when really he is normal human beings that made a certain career choice. For all we know, the soldiers could be against the hypothetical case of injustice just as much as any civilian and were simply coerced into directly enforcing it.

    On the flip side of the issue, the same defenders of the ethical superiority of conventional warfare often will portray civilians as innocent, not involved, and generally external to any conflicts in the modern world. This is contrasted with the above view that military personnel are directly involved and rarely ‘innocent’ in situations deemed unjust. This view neglects the role of the civilians/citizens of the host to the military plays in any conflict their military is involved in. Military caused/enforced injustices are impossible without funding to support them. This funding comes directly from the taxes of every single civilian in the host country. Furthermore, by applying the economic concept of opportunity cost to this situation, we can also say that by the entire civilian class specializing their skills and interacting through a market enables certain individuals to specialize in military procedures that directly enforce the hypothetical injustice. If everyone made produced only what they consumed themselves and did not specialize and trade through markets, the military personnel would have no choice but to give up their military careers and turn to a similar life of self-substance (since everyone is growing just enough food for themselves and not trading any extra through markets, there will not be enough for soldiers unless they grow their own food as well). Even interaction with the same economy of the military enables them to continue their enforcement of hypothetical injustice. Of course, the civilians could become external to the conflict by simply refusing to pay taxes and avoiding interaction with the market economy, but just like the soldier refusing duty this retaining of innocence comes at a hefty price, potentially including poverty (interaction with the markets generally make you better off), exile (for avoiding taxes) and even imprisonment (for avoiding taxes). Again, the moral position of both the civilians and the military personnel seems to be identical.

    Another argument that could be made at this point is that any opposition to injustice has a responsibility to minimize deaths (both military and civilian) while fighting injustice. Since each soldier physically supports/enforces said injustice to a higher degree than each civilian, the opposition can gain more for their cause (eliminate support for the injustice) by killing a soldier than they can by killing a civilian and thus has a responsibility to target military personnel rather than civilians. This argument lacks the acknowledgment of one major point: Injustice is only worth fighting against if the fight can be won. If fighting an injustice violently fails to do away with the injustice, then the fighting simply caused more pain and suffering on top of the original injustice. If there is a case where the enforcers of injustices are militarily-superior (which often seems to be the case) or even just militarily equal, then often the opposition to injustice can do more for their cause by targeting civilians rather than targeting military personnel due to the high cost of targeting the military (they cause more damage back). If the costs of attacking only military targets result in failure, then one could argue that they would be better off, from a military perspective, to target civilians. There are also possible ‘media exposure’ benefits that come with civilian targeting (eg. See media coverage of Israeli-Palestinian conflict compared to Tamil Tiger-Sir Lanka conflict or Nepalese civil war).

    This logic may sound cold, harsh, and outright detestable—and perhaps it is—but it is actually widely accepted in most minds within the context of World War II. Most people are able to overlook the Allied bombings of entire German and Japanese cities (sometimes even including Hiroshima and Nagasaki) due to the obviously noble ends of the Allies means. However, if we can accept that civilian targeting is acceptable in cases where it will save millions more than those who die due to such targeting, what is our logical basis for denouncing such means in order to save the same amount of lives killed plus one? This essay is not meant to support total-war mentality, nor is it meant to support pacifism mentality (but most can certainly agree that this mentality is superior to the former), but it does outline the logic that there is no middle ground (except perhaps the middle ground of political assassination, since the political leaders are the only ones with real choice whether to support the hypothetical injustice or not). If we, as a collective entity, choose to undertake a military endeavor, we must also be willing to undertake the collective guilty that may be associated with that endeavor because there is no meaningful difference between the ethics of conventional warfare and terrorist warfare.
    1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
    2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
    3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
    4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
    5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
    6) Therefore, God does not exist.


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  2. #2

    Default Re: Ethics of War

    to me there is only one ethic. Winning.
    Without a sign, his sword the brave man draws, and asks no omen but his country's cause

    Liberalism is a mental disorder


  3. #3
    Ronin's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavastein View Post
    to me there is only one ethic. Winning.
    The lines one is willing to cross to achieve victory seperate the serial killers from the soldiers.

    Before with my statement "I do not support terrorism" I should have said "I do not support a violent resoloution to grievances." Things can and should be resolved diplomatically whenever possible. There should never be a need to blow something to prove a point.

    "I am ronin because I serve no master.

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    I am a warrior of justice."
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    TheKwas's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Then I suppose that you are a potential Terrorist.. no?
    1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
    2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
    3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
    4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
    5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
    6) Therefore, God does not exist.


    Garbarsardar's love child, and the only child he loves. ^-^

  5. #5
    Ronin's Avatar Biarchus
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    Icon11 Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by TheKwas View Post
    Then I suppose that you are a potential Terrorist.. no?
    One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

    With that said I do not support terrorism of any kind. Simply pointing out that life can fall into shades of ethical greyness.

    "I am ronin because I serve no master.

    The set of principles that denote absolute justice require no
    subordinates.
    I am a warrior of justice."
    ~ Ronin

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

    With that said I do not support terrorism of any kind. Simply pointing out that life can fall into shades of ethical greyness.
    And once we accept those shades, surely the line between terrorism and not-terrorism is blurred, so you can cross it without realising it?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    And once we accept those shades, surely the line between terrorism and not-terrorism is blurred, so you can cross it without realising it?
    You can ignore or accept the shades all you want but it doesn't change the fact that they are there. The world, forget limiting it to war, has never been black and white. It's actually easier to cross said line when you think in black and white, just so you know.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by TheKwas View Post
    Then I suppose that you are a potential Terrorist.. no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post

    As supposed guardians of freedom and democracy we should set an example by remaining humane at all times.



    perhaps. But what would you prefer? Win or lose? Men toasted each other almsot half a century ago. men decapitated each other in close combat with guts falling on each other and cries and screams. Spare me the ethics game. Wars are for winning.


    talk about humanity after youve done your deeds.
    Last edited by Lavastein; December 05, 2006 at 05:44 PM.
    Without a sign, his sword the brave man draws, and asks no omen but his country's cause

    Liberalism is a mental disorder


  9. #9
    Ronin's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavastein View Post
    perhaps. But what would you prefer? Win or lose? Men toasted each other almsot half a century ago. men decapitated each other in close combat with guts falling on each other and cries and screams. Spare me the ethics game. Wars are for winning.


    talk about humanity after youve done your deeds.
    Ethics separate the murderers from the soldiers.


    The politicians from the dictators.

    "I am ronin because I serve no master.

    The set of principles that denote absolute justice require no
    subordinates.
    I am a warrior of justice."
    ~ Ronin

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    Ethics separate the murderers from the soldiers.


    The politicians from the dictators.


    whats the difference? Ethics seperate the living from the dead. The idiot that isnt willing to do anything to win is the one that dies. Winning is all that matters. The guy that doesnt seperate ethics from war is the one that dies and loses.


    Love and peace doesnt win wars or lead men to victory. Smashing and destruction is the way to enlightenment. Hence W A R.
    Without a sign, his sword the brave man draws, and asks no omen but his country's cause

    Liberalism is a mental disorder


  11. #11
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Islam sets down clear guidelines as to when war is ethically right and how such a war should be conducted.

    War is decreed in Islam in self defense to defend Islam (rather than to spread it); Islam also allows war if an Islamic state comes under attack, or if another state is oppressing its own Muslims.

    This indicates that war in Islam is only a mean to ward off aggression and not a mean to impose Islam as a religion; as some may claim. Referring to this, Allah Almighty says:

    “To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; and verily God is most powerful for their aid.” Qur’an (22:39)

    Also the Holly Qur'an has stressed the fact that war is launched only to fight for noble motives without seeking any earthly reward: Allah says:

    "Those who readily fight in the cause of God are those who forsake this world in favor of the Hereafter. Whoever fights in the cause of God, then gets killed, or attains victory, we will surely grant him a great recompense." Qur'an (4:74)

    War in Islam should be conducted in a disciplined way according to the principles of Allah’s justice; so as to avoid injuring non-combatants with the minimum necessary force without anger and with humane treatments towards prisoners of war because Islam is in favor of peace and against violence.

    The instructions of Islam are to be observed in war and in peace times. Islamic jurisprudence maintains that whatever is prohibited during peace is also prohibited during war. War is no excuse to be lenient with misbehaving troops.

    Fighting should be directed only against fighting troops and not to non- fighting persons, for Islam bans the killing of non-combatants or of a combatant who has been captured. Also Allah has forbidden Muslim from attacking wounded soldiers (unless the wounded person is still fighting).

    Prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) view of non-combatants is shown by a hadith in which he (PBUH) saw a woman killed in the battlefield and this was denounced by the Prophet saying "She did not fight".

    Islam adopts an attitude of mercy and caring for the captured enemy, it prohibits any form of abuse or torture whether physical or sexual against the enemy.

    Previously, it was the custom for the captive to work for his food or get it through private means then the Qur’an made it a charity to feed the prisoners and the Prophet (PBUH) urged his Companions to be good to the captives.

    When the Jewish tribe of Bani Qurayzah was in the seizure of the Muslims, loads of dates were regularly carried to them, with the Prophet's instructions to shelter them from the summer sun and to provide them with water to drink.

    According to Islamic law, the captive belongs to the state and not to his captor. The ruler has the ultimate option, as he sees fit, of granting freedom or doing that after taking a ransom. An acceptable ransom that was quite often carried out was to teach ten Muslim children to read and write. Sometimes captives were exchanged for Muslim captives in enemy hands.

    Captives were set free upon their word of honor not to fight again, and they should not be ordered by their governments to go to battle again. If they break their promise, they might be sentenced to death if they are captured again.

    Umarna Ibn-Athal was set free upon his promise not to provide the enemy with food. This gentle treatment touched the man’s heart and was then embraced Islam saying to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH):

    "There was a time when your face was the most hated face to me, and there comes a day when it is the most loved.”

    Also Islam has emphatically prohibited treachery by taking the enemy by surprise attack. Recent examples of signing a pact or treaty with a nation as camouflage to hidden intent to attack it are quite contrary to Islam. If Muslims sense the treachery of any enemy with whom they had a treaty, they should cancel with him that treaty before embarking on war again.

    Islamic war was one of liberation and not of compulsion. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and his Companions, May Allah be pleased with them, never fought to force people to accept Islam. On the contrary, war was launched to save Muslims living in countries ruled by Non-Muslims, so as to grant them freedom to practice the religion they’ve chosen. Had people entered Islam because of force, they would have gone back to their roots.

    It is worth mentioning that when Muslims fought the Romans in Egypt, the Egyptian Copts sided with and helped Muslims against the Romans who were Christians like them. This was because Christian Egypt was suffering religious oppression by the Christian Romans to compel them to adopt their religious beliefs.

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    I agree; its just that saying this:
    With that said I do not support terrorism of any kind
    Is incompatible with a shades-og-grey morality, for pretty clear reasons.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Terrorism is completely compatible with shades-of-gray morality. It's just not compatible with legality. By definition terrorism is the unlawful use of violence/fear to achieve a political or ideological goal. War is merely the legal declaration of such in the broadest sense.
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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Terrorism is, but a statement as clear as his removes any possibility of grey-areas; terrorism is a grey area, but any statement condemning all of it by neccessity condemns everything due to the non-grey nature of the statement.

  15. #15
    mrjesushat's Avatar (son of mrgodhat)
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Ethics of war? How is it possible to have an operating system of ethics while engaged in a condition under which all ethics are made void? This is a strange concept, indeed.

    The terrorist wars as any other human being would, under the same circumstances. People do what they believe works on the basis of what they believe to be justified, and their belief is either confirmed or disconfirmed by the apparent results. The concept of a "terrorist" is exactly and only that---a concept. We may as well simply call those we wish to label in the negative, "Enemy", and leave it at that.
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjesushat View Post
    Ethics of war? How is it possible to have an operating system of ethics while engaged in a condition under which all ethics are made void? This is a strange concept, indeed.
    Ethics: the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.

    It is the backbone of war, even if only as a bargaining chip along the lines of "If you don't do this to us or your POWs, we won't do it to yours."
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  17. #17
    mrjesushat's Avatar (son of mrgodhat)
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Ethics: the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.
    Amusing. There are no rules in war. The pretense that there are rules is inevitably undercut by the presence of those in wartime who will do anything. Find me a war without atrocities, and I'll entertain your notion of some transcendent moral rule. Which, by the way, you have only implied by way of protest. Your actual statement above overtly states that ethics are the result of a sort of agreement, and I think you'll find that many wars are the result of large-scale disagreements. And that said disagreements frequently involve matters "of ethics".

    It is the backbone of war, even if only as a bargaining chip along the lines of "If you don't do this to us or your POWs, we won't do it to yours."
    That's not ethics. That's pragmatism, which many would define as essentially unethical, as the results are all that matter. This does not of necessity eliminate the possibility of a moral pragmatist; it suggests merely that a utilitarian turn of mind is not terribly concerned with rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendylyn
    A stranger concept would be that anything could make ethics void, let alone war.
    Perhaps, unless one understands that those things arising merely from human awareness do not tend upon anything outside the human experience. And most of reality lies outside of the human experience. The sun does not care what we think of ethics, anymore than does a bear or a mountain lion. If two groups of people really want to destroy eachother, no limitations upon actions exist. Ethics is the result of a set of human agreements, nothing more. Agreements are subject to change, and subject to violation.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjesushat View Post
    Amusing. There are no rules in war. The pretense that there are rules is inevitably undercut by the presence of those in wartime who will do anything. Find me a war without atrocities, and I'll entertain your notion of some transcendent moral rule. Which, by the way, you have only implied by way of protest. Your actual statement above overtly states that ethics are the result of a sort of agreement, and I think you'll find that many wars are the result of large-scale disagreements. And that said disagreements frequently involve matters "of ethics".
    1. The Geneva Convention has something to say about there being no rules in war.

    2. If there is not a set of ethics in war, then there is no such thing as atrocities. After all, without a set of guidelines, there is no way to say what is wrong.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  19. #19
    mrjesushat's Avatar (son of mrgodhat)
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    1. The Geneva Convention has something to say about there being no rules in war.
    Yep. An agreement. Subject to change, and subject to violation. Ultimately, the victors write the history, even as they make the rules. SHow me a set of rules imposed by the vanquished upon their conquerors, without the express cooperation of said conquerors, and I will show you a deliberate attempt at deception.

    In 10,000 years, there will be no Geneva Convention.

    2. If there is not a set of ethics in war, then there is no such thing as atrocities. After all, without a set of guidelines, there is no way to say what is wrong.
    Yep. That's the point exactly. We, as persons believing in certain ethics or values, may hold that certain acts are atrocious. We will be ignored by those who disagree with us. Ergo, our belief system does not affect anything not controlled by that belief system. Ethics as a system or concept is a tool of the mind, and as such, is imaginary. It's like religion or patriotism. The breadth of adherence does not change the fact that said belief influences and affects exactly nothing outside the human experience. And it is only of marginal significance to those humans that do not adhere to these concepts, generally speaking.
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  20. #20
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Ethics of War

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjesushat View Post
    Amusing. There are no rules in war. The pretense that there are rules is inevitably undercut by the presence of those in wartime who will do anything. Find me a war without atrocities, and I'll entertain your notion of some transcendent moral rule. Which, by the way, you have only implied by way of protest. Your actual statement above overtly states that ethics are the result of a sort of agreement, and I think you'll find that many wars are the result of large-scale disagreements. And that said disagreements frequently involve matters "of ethics".
    There are ethics or rules of war in Islam. That some muslims doesn't seem to follow it didn't mean that they are no rules about it.

    Having rules about war in Islam however does not mean that Islam glorifies only wars but just a means for guidance how to conduct ourselves if the disagreements between men do actually comes to war.


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