Converting camps to cities and nomadic factions to settled ones

[QuintusSertorius]

The Hyparchia is an inferior government, but the Satrapy is higher than the Supervised Hellenic Admin.

[paulhewsoon1]

The Hyparchia is an inferior government, but the Satrapy is higher than the Supervised Hellenic Admin.

Oh well, so for a Satrapy I go...!

[Kilo11]

It's to do with factions having an affinity with nomads. You can't force them to stay in a converted settlement and become urbanised people, so only those factions with a strong enough connection can do so.

That makes sense in a general way; I mean, if the people don't want to live in cities, then that's that, and only someone with some ties to them would have a chance in settling them down, as they'd probably need to be able to convince the nomads that cities are better. This is definitely no small task, since you'd be getting an entire tribe/people to adopt a new way of life, one they may have serious religious/cultural/welfare related objections to. This means then that (I assume) the settlements on the map that we capture are in some sense symbolic for the region, since there wouldn't then be a proper city/camp to take in the first place. Just for clarification, have I understood the background thinking there correctly?

So, my minor objection though is that this whole line of thought still doesn't rule out the possibility of a conqueror just building a city there to control the region. I mean, if I am a settled nation, and am out conquering the four corners of the world, then wouldn't I be inclined to build a proper settlement to support those invasions, and those settlements would be likely to quickly evolve into proper cities, what with the need for smiths, farmers, tanners, etc. to support the troops stationed there. Then you have the families of these craftsmen and soldiers along as well, and pretty quickly you get cities. That's a quick and dirty summary of it, but you get the idea. I mean, that is precisely what happened for many of the Limitanei forts (if I am not mistaken). I know that, at the very least, the modern German cities of Regensburg (on the Danube) and Köln/Cologne (on the Rhine) began in precisely that fashion. So, given all that, why limit who can settle camps? I mean, why shouldn't the Romans (or anyone else) be able to build a military fort in nomads' territory and then after a certain period of time upgrade that fort to a settlement? That does not seem to violate the historicity in any real fashion, and then there is not the *issue* (obviously it's not a real problem, but it irritates some) of holding camps forever and not being able to upgrade them in the way you'd want.

At any rate, it is always sad to me that things are not savegame compatible I start with Rome, cause that's my way of things, but then I become intrigued by the idea of making small changes to game files which, alas, will never be seen in my alternate Rome.

[QuintusSertorius]

Well, there's a dual problem. Not only that the natives can simply ride away if they don't feel like being ruled over by some foreigners, but also that they're places so remote for the most part that you couldn't get your own people there in significant numbers. The sort of establishment you're talking about was the work of centuries, not a handful of years. We've also adjusted things so you can put some colonies (Local Colonies) in more places, which represents a limited form of settlement. These were design choices, and with the new pastoral settlement setup there's less of a stark divide in terms of infrastructure between city and camp, but we're not minded to change it. The whole point of playing different factions is to get different experiences, and we aren't going to make it straightforward for any one faction to conquer any part of the map.

[Kilo11]

Well, there's a dual problem. Not only that the natives can simply ride away if they don't feel like being ruled over by some foreigners, but also that they're places so remote for the most part that you couldn't get your own people there in significant numbers. The sort of establishment you're talking about was the work of centuries, not a handful of years. We've also adjusted things so you can put some colonies (Local Colonies) in more places, which represents a limited form of settlement. These were design choices, and with the new pastoral settlement setup there's less of a stark divide in terms of infrastructure between city and camp, but we're not minded to change it. The whole point of playing different factions is to get different experiences, and we aren't going to make it straightforward for any one faction to conquer any part of the map.

You've definitely got a point about the timeframe - those limitanei forts definitely did not become actual settlements until much later, and until it was clear they were there to stay, for the most part. I also get that there is an intention to making things different for different regions, and to limiting the expansionism of any one faction to specific regions, or at least making it more difficult for them to spread to places that are so very different. I guess my thing is that there are a few camps so close to established settlements/cities, and ones that were there for a while, that it seems a bit odd to not be able to settle them down. I mean, I just took Delmatia, which is right between Rome, Greece, Epeiros, and Macedon, and so surely had plenty of contact/experience with more settled peoples, but I can't get the camp to a city. I guess that just strikes me as odd.

All that being said though, I can still see the point of what you guys have done here. I will have to think over whether I'd like to make all camps convertible for any faction before starting another campaign with someone else, because I can see points on both sides.

[QuintusSertorius]

Again, there's an entirely new system of "pastoral settlements" for places that were less concentrated in a handful of major settlements, and more generally dispersed areas in 2.3 that changes the balance somewhat.

[Kilo11]

Yeah, I'll probably leave the files be, and just get a feel for having camps that I can't convert. It's making me have to re-tool a bit of strategy in a couple places, because I can't pull down the taxes to help unrest, which means some classy governors are having to be set in camps until they get their infrastructures in order, but that is only a minor thing, and one that is reasonable for me to undertake.

Up to now I have only ever changed game files to implement legitimate fixes (on a few other mods had units that said they were recruitable but weren't, due to a missing line in the files, or a missing hidden resource that I added, and other things of that nature) and there is something satisfying about that. You guys have something in mind here and have thought well over all your decisions (I am assuming ) so it would be awfully lame of me to just go through the files shredding them to make the game the way I want it. I was raised better than that!

[myarta]

The main thing with Delmatium is that your nomad infrastructure limits you from building mines at all, since Strategic Fortifications (roads_garrison_one) are required for mines, and a civlib or oligtwo are needed for StratFors. But oligtwos can't be built in camps (and not building_present core_castle_building). So if you want those delicious minerals (Rome's closest major mining operation), you need to realize you have to build a civlib to get a stratfor up, then smash the civlib and build allied so you can recruit a CR so you don't have to leave your best general stuck there forever pacifying, using the stratfor you now have from playing around on the factional government to build the mines as the allied one. It's slightly awkward. Maybe it could be dropped to the oligone/demone tier for building stratfor?

Also, without converting into a settlement, you sadly can't build 2nd tier mining operations, even with 200 years to work with, as it's a relatively early capture.

[QuintusSertorius]

The main thing with Delmatium is that your nomad infrastructure limits you from building mines at all, since Strategic Fortifications (roads_garrison_one) are required for mines, and a civlib or oligtwo are needed for StratFors. But oligtwos can't be built in camps (and not building_present core_castle_building). So if you want those delicious minerals (Rome's closest major mining operation), you need to realize you have to build a civlib to get a stratfor up, then smash the civlib and build allied so you can recruit a CR so you don't have to leave your best general stuck there forever pacifying, using the stratfor you now have from playing around on the factional government to build the mines as the allied one. It's slightly awkward. Maybe it could be dropped to the oligone/demone tier for building stratfor?

Also, without converting into a settlement, you sadly can't build 2nd tier mining operations, even with 200 years to work with, as it's a relatively early capture.

Dropping the oligtwo requirement for road_garrison_one is a good idea - that will mean you can build the first tier of mining in pastoral settlements with an Allied Government. More options is good here. But restricting the second tier to converted ones is fine.

[Mantaprey]

For version 2.3

These factions:
Pahlava, Sweboz, Saka Rauka, Sauromatae, Mamla ha biMassylim, Lougiones, Kimmeros Bosporos, Halmalkot ha'Nabati, Boii, Getai and Safot Softim biQarthadast.

Have a Pastoral Region with a camp

Build the highest level of farms

Build the conversion into a permanent settlement.

Done

[Gunydii]

Just a thought on the AI supposedly having issues converting camps, is it possible you could do a work around?

I've done a quick google and apparently there's an "create_building" console command. If you gave AI factions some kind of dummy building a 'conversion tag building' that they could build when the settlement / their faction governance is suitably developed, this could create a dummy event that every so often 5, 10, 20 years could be checked. if the 'event' has occurred could you then by script create the conversion building.

Full disclosure - I'm an idiot who doesn't really know how any of this works, I presume stuff like this may well have been thought of but its not suitable, doable etc, but I thought it was worth checking just in case.

[Assur Nikator]

Ok, so I tried converting Capsa with Numidia. No matter what I do, there is never the option to convert to a permanent settlement. At best, I can build Small-Scale Nomadic Farms, and that's it. The Steppe Nomadism culture just increases after a while.

I even tried letting around 120 turns pass, still nothing. Suggestions anyone?

[Genghis Skahn]

Ok, so I tried converting Capsa with Numidia. No matter what I do, there is never the option to convert to a permanent settlement. At best, I can build Small-Scale Nomadic Farms, and that's it. The Steppe Nomadism culture just increases after a while.

I even tried letting around 120 turns pass, still nothing. Suggestions anyone?

Try destroying the herds building and see if a new level of farms opens up.

[Assur Nikator]

Just tried a save where Capsa was at 1700 households. I destroyed the (very basic) herds building, still nothing. Western Nomadism is at 59%. (+18%)

I actually started a short test game and built only three things - Urban Administration, the upgrade to a larger camp which is almost immediately available and the upgrade to the dispersed farming. In around 20 turns, Western Nomadism is already starting to increase and even so, no higher farming tier appears.

[Assur Nikator]

Sorry for the double post - I meant Steppe Nomadism.

[Kull]

Ok, so I tried converting Capsa with Numidia. No matter what I do, there is never the option to convert to a permanent settlement. At best, I can build Small-Scale Nomadic Farms, and that's it. The Steppe Nomadism culture just increases after a while.

I even tried letting around 120 turns pass, still nothing. Suggestions anyone?

To get the 3rd level of Nomad Farms, your steppe or arid nomadism has to be below 60% (for nomfarm_two it's 75%), so odds are you would need a non-faction Gov to get there. Allied Govs will convert to rel_x (rebel), so that's probably your best option. As a team we'll talk about this, but it DOES make sense that camps should not convert when they have high levels of nomadism prevalent in the province. Unfortunately it might need to be pointed out more explicitly.

[Assur Nikator]

In that case, Capsa should start with an Allied Government, rather than offer you the chance to build Urban Administration from the get go - even though it says in the description that the Urban Administration is necessary for the sedentary reforms.

In any case, thanks for the answers everyone, I'll try destroying the starting government in Capsa and going the allied gov route for a while and see what happens. (Now if there would only be a Diplomacy hotfix release - I'm looking at you, weird diplomat activity and constant Distrustful relations)

[Genghis Skahn]

In that case, Capsa should start with an Allied Government, rather than offer you the chance to build Urban Administration from the get go - even though it says in the description that the Urban Administration is necessary for the sedentary reforms.

In any case, thanks for the answers everyone, I'll try destroying the starting government in Capsa and going the allied gov route for a while and see what happens. (Now if there would only be a Diplomacy hotfix release - I'm looking at you, weird diplomat activity and constant Distrustful relations)

First of all, Capsa should not start as an allied gov. That makes no sense historically(Capsa and Kirtan are as Numidian as you get on the map--the governed tribe government makes 1000x more sense), but more importantly the AI never destroys allied governments, so once one is there, it's there until the player destroys it. Given these considerations, and the fact that allied govs are inferior to most factional govs, it should remain the way it is. The player can destroy it if he so wishes.

Secondly, nobody says you have to install the urban gov right away. In fact, you should wait to do so, since you lose the +1000 minai bonus a governed tribe gives. The Sedentary reform is going to take a while, which is intentional. You are not supposed to be able to convert all your camps right away. You can wait to build this government until the time is right.

Thirdly, here's the biggest problem you're overlooking(likely the source of all your frustrations--since I've confirmed the reforms as working ages ago, and they haven't been touched since AFAIK):

Just tried a save where Capsa was at 1700 households. I destroyed the (very basic) herds building, still nothing. Western Nomadism is at 59%. (+18%)

You need a large camp to build medium and large scale farms in Capsa, or anywhere else(if you checked the building browser, you'd know this). I've tested the Numidian reforms multiple times, and have never had trouble converting Capsa or Sigan. In fact, the reforms should be easier than when I tested them, since Kirtan already starts out as a settlement, and you no longer need to convert it to complete the reforms. Of course you can't build large farms when the pop. is 1700. That's nowhere near large camp levels of population. As mentioned before, camp conversion isn't supposed to happen overnight, it takes a lot of development and waiting by the player.

If you want to be 100% safe, destroy your herds building and rebuild only the L1 herds building--that level of herd building will never block off any level of farms.

tl;dr

I think your whole problem revolves around expecting to be able to build large farms without a large camp.

[Assur Nikator]

Yes, I know it makes no sense, I only suggested it since at this point in time, it looks to be the only way through which the player can diminish the nomadic culture in Capsa from the start. In any case the proper route should be made clearer to the player - as it is, the Urban Administration description suggests it is a natural step in eroding the nomadic culture of the region, nowhere is it suggested I am supposed to hold off on building it.

Secondly, I know this is not supposed to be done immediately - I've done a 120 turn test game specifically for this. The problem was that I had no way of making Steppe Nomadism remain bellow 60%, even without building advanced herds. To make things perfectly clear, I built the following things in Capsa, one after the other, as soon as I could:

1) Urban Administration 2) 1st level of Nomadic farms 3) (as soon as possible) Large Camp

(yes, I waited that long; I even waited until it had 6000 households thinking maybe something will open up then). At no point was there any way for me to lower nomadic culture or at least keep it under 60%, so that the 2nd farm level could open.

[Assur Nikator]

And I did read the building browser, so often that I know Numidia's building capabilities by heart.