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Thread: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

  1. #1
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    Default [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Hopefully, this is something we call agree on is better for the Curia.

    It is time to stream line the voting procedure.

    Proposal
    1. Create a Election Application Thread in the Curia Main Forum
    3. Changes to the legislative procedure: Polls are added to proposals and election debate threads instead of creating an entirely new thread in the Curia Vote Forum. The debate thread is moved from the Prothalomos to the Curia Vote forum when a poll is added to it.

    Rationale: Make the fora easier to navigate by putting everything in one places, with the exception of elections. It will also make it easier for the Curator to manage the Curia.


    Section III Article I
    The Curia is broken into distinct sections.


    • CVRIA - For general discussion of governance matters. Polls concerning specific amendments, decisions and nominations are not permitted in the Curia main.
    • Quaestiones Perpetuae – Where Citizenship applications are processed.
    • Prothalamos - An area specifically for the proposal and discussion of legislation and decisions. Polls are not permitted within the Prothalamos.
    • Curia Votes - An area used for voting on matters that bind the Curia.
    • The Politia – Where the Triumvirate treats with disciplinary cases and where private referrals are stored.


    Additional areas may be added at the discretion of the Citizens following an appropriate Decision being passed.
    Section III Article II
    When a Curial Election is required the Curator shall open an application threadmake an announcement in the Election Application Thread and open a debate thread in the Curia main and post an announcement in any relevant forum. Applicants for the vacant position must post their confirmation in the application thread, and if they wish reasons for wanting to hold the position and any relevant qualifications. Any comments or debates must be posted in the debate thread. The Hexagon Council may veto applicants and, should more than six members apply for any position, may shortlist six members to stand for the election.

    Once applications are complete the Curator shall open a poll in the Curia Votes forumcreate a poll in the debate thread and move the thread to the Curia Vote Forum. The vote shall last for one week and the member who receives the plurality of votes shall be elected. Where more than one of the same position is vacant the procedure is the same, and the members with the highest votes are elected. In the case of ties a run off vote is held between the tied members lasting 3 days. If there is only one applicant a ratification vote shall be held with options "Yes" and "No". If there is no applicant the application period shall be prolonged, the organiser of the election shall search for a candidate and the incumbent will remain in office until a replacement has been elected. The debate thread is closed upon the conclusion of the poll.
    Section III Article III
    When a bill is moved to vote the Curator add a poll and make an announcement that a poll has been added to the debate thread is left open and the Curator shall post the newest draft of the bill, and a link to the bill's Prothalamos thread, as a new poll in the Curia Votes forum. All bills shall be voted on for one week. Subsequent posts in this thread are limited to the notification of having voted. Messages lobbying to vote for or against, including via signatures and avatars are prohibited; however, posts lobbying to vote for or against are allowed in the original debate thread and in the Curial Commentary Thread. All bills shall pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non abstaining votes in favour. If any bill fails a vote no re-vote on a substantially similar bill will be permitted within twenty-eight days.
    Last edited by PikeStance; March 26, 2016 at 03:16 AM.
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Not a bad idea and I would support if it did not go against my own idea of opening up the Curia to non-citizens.
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    IMO, it is best to based a decision on the here and now and not on possibilities of what might happen.
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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    @Pike
    People (Iskar, Higo Chumbo, someone else, maybe) have been talking about deeper changes to simplify the structure of the subforum. Would you support those changes? If so, why don't you add this idea to those discussions or wait to see the outcome of those discussions?
    Last edited by mishkin; March 01, 2016 at 04:53 AM.

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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Because, I propose changes for the here and now and not for some possibility.
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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    The way I see it, you prefer an amendment with your name to participate in a broader process.
    Based on my congenital malice, I oppose.

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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    I think that unfortuantely that doesn't help. I have nothing against this proposal or against the author. On contrary I'm in favor of anything that can simplifies the Curia in general. My remark is purely on the form.
    Creating numerous threads about basically the same topic/goal doesn't help. Gathering all proposals going in the same direction together would probably be better for the said simplification and also for people to make their mind. But that's just my opinion.
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Experience has taught me that the more complicated the amendment, that is the more components people need to agree on, then the more difficult it is to get anything pass. It could be while before something is put to vote and it still needs to be pass. Never assume consensus by those that respond in a thread. This is something simple enough and, IMHO, logical enough that it can be implemented with little opposition. If at some future date, another change is in order, then we can address that when we get their. Of course, this could go to vote and fail.
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  9. #9
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    There was no hurry at all. I reaffirm my initial opinion.
    Last edited by mishkin; March 01, 2016 at 08:47 AM.

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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Ok, let's say we make easy in the Curator now.
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Neither supporting nor opposing, but in the Section III Article I section, you need to remove the second sentence from the Proth description as that would be invalid.
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Edited; thanks!
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Was there ever a cogent reason to have proposal discussions and their votes separately?
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    To allow discussion to continue during the period of voting (more due to praxis than regulation but none the less, voting threads been prefered clean from declarations and debate), while avoiding a mix up between the "Curia Vote" and "Prothalamos" content, I presume?

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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    I thought I had read someone was there wasn't a way to add a poll to preexisting thread, so they had to create a separate thread for a poll.
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    The latter is certainly not the reason, as the Curator can add polls to threads. As for the former point, what would get mixed up? People can just continue discussing while the poll is up. We can do the same with citizenship applications as of now. I'd actually be in favour of scrapping the Curia Vote and have the voting done in the Proth threads. (Note: That would not be a hindrance to future proposals for opening the Proth to all members, as posting and voting privileges can be handled separately by usergroups.)

    As for elections, I think it would be better to simply post the application thread in the QP, add the poll to this once the application period is over and keep the discussion thread in the Curia main. I don't like the idea of another sticky for election applications and it might get confusing when you have several concurrent elections or with old posts in the thread getting mixed up with current ones.
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  17. #17
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    The separation is a safeguard. Say for example that a bad curator moved your proposal to a vote early and the poll has to be taken down. If they're separate the poll gets incinerated and that's that. If they're not separate the proth thread has to be edited and that can lead to serious misunderstandings, particularly if the proposer is the curator.
    It's also cleaner if for whatever reason you want to keep the discussion going but abandon the vote and most importantly:
    It ensures that people's votes are not influenced by the last posts in the proposal thread and
    It makes shady behavior on the Curator's part a lot more visible.

    Furthermore keeping them separate also helps keep the voting threads clean for future reference/use. We all know how muddy proth threads can get.
    Last edited by Settra; March 17, 2016 at 12:09 PM.
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  18. #18
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    What would one need for future reference except the poll at the top, which is unaffected by how muddy the thread gets?

    You may have a point about deleting/editing of polls, though. Have to think about it.

    EDIT: I thought about it. I don't think it would be a problem. There will always be at least one Curial Assistant to handle the administrative tasks for proposals where the Curator is the proposer and closing/later reopening premature polls is not that complicated. In fact I have already had such a case as Curial Assistant sometime in 2015.
    Last edited by Iskar; March 17, 2016 at 12:11 PM.
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  19. #19
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Why are poll threads archived instead of simply being deleted? Let's be honest here, sometimes proposal threads are not examples of model citizen behavior. If they are merged that behavior will be brought up again and again each time the polls are consulted (for whatever reason). That's not something we want if we aim to improve this place.

    As for deletion, why increase the risk of a up, and we all up from time to time, when you have perfectly good safeguard in place to prevent it.
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  20. #20
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Admendment] Legislature Streamlining

    Wouldn't the possibility of being remembered for a lapse incentivise people to prevent said lapse at all?

    I would scrap the safeguard when the bureaucratic brouhaha it creates is in no sensible proportion to the safeguarding effect it aims at. Having a separate sub forum and two separate threads for each proposal is in my opinion in fact a bit too much to safeguard against the odd administrative slip that only happens rarely - if ever.
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