Armor upgrades do not deliver

[dopp]

After doing some comparing of unit armor values based on units that already come with some kind of armor, I've come up with the following:

Padded = 4 points
Light Mail/Splint = 5 points
Heavy Mail/Splint = 7 points
Partial Plate = 8 points
Full Plate = 9 points
Advanced Plate (but usually means no shield) = 11 points

The developers have obviously put a lot of effort into armor upgrades. Being able to re-equip your pitiful spear militia with heavy mail is one of the highlights of Medieval 2. However, the upgrades do not deliver in terms of actual gameplay statistics. Each level of upgrade simply gives +1 armor. Upgrading a unit of spear miltia with padded armor gives them just 1 measly point of armor. Italian spear militia that come with padded armor get 4 points straight off. Upgrading a pike unit the full 3 times gives them impressive-looking partial plate graphics but only 3 points of armor, not even comparable to padded armor. By rights they should have 7 points of armor. Worse still, some units skip armor upgrade levels, yet still only give +1 armor. For example, Tercio Pikemen skip padded and go straight to light mail, yet only receive +1 armor for the upgrade.

This interesting arrangement results in the following: a) disillusionment with a key feature of the game (upgrading armor), b) little or no reason to build armorers, c) unfair advantage to units that already come with armor, d) unfair disadvantage to many late-game units (pikemen, musketeers, half-armored cavalry), e) glaring inconsistencies in unit armor values. I am seriously considering reporting this as a bug. Hopefully, this will be moddable when the unpacker is released.

[shadyrome]

Seems like a good idea but Padded gives 4 points? isnt that abit to much

[Derfel von Saljeth]

Wow that's a great idea and i hope it will possibile to implement in the game

[Ringeck]

Seems like a good idea but Padded gives 4 points? isnt that abit to much

Not really. Layered quilted textile armour is extremely effective at stopping both thrusting points and cutting edges. Thick layers of it is also in all likelihood the best defense you can get against light missiles like arrows and bolts, and was widely used even after the advent of "white plate" - typically on top of the plate on vulnerable sections such as the body. It was worn well into the modern period. Its main disadvantage is that it requires a lot of maintenance and may even have to be discarded if damaged too severely in combat.

[Gelgoog]

Not really. Layered quilted textile armour is extremely effective at stopping both thrusting points and cutting edges. Thick layers of it is also in all likelihood the best defense you can get against light missiles like arrows and bolts, and was widely used even after the advent of "white plate" - typically on top of the plate on vulnerable sections such as the body. It was worn well into the modern period. Its main disadvantage is that it requires a lot of maintenance and may even have to be discarded if damaged too severely in combat.

not from what ive read. padded armor is mostly worn beneat armor, its what stops the kenetic energy of a blow or missle. worn on top of armor is nearly useless. take chainmail, when you would wear it, the padded armor would be beneath chainmail. the chainmail would stop a slashing blow much like kevlar, but if you just wore chainmail and no padding , i slashing blow without any padding is more likely to break bones in the area it hits. as with an arrow chainmail might would likely prevent the arrow ( non arrow peicing arrows) from getting through, but only if you had padded armor beneth, because its the cushoning of the impact that prevents the kenetic energy of the arrow from breaking through the chainmail, without it chainmail would only protect you from cuts, nothing else. if padding is worn on the outside, it wont stop the arrow because nothing is holding the arrow from cutting into the fabric and peircing in past the chainmail.
most feudal knights also wore some "coat of plates" which was a bunch of plates of armor ( not brigidine) rivited together as extra protection.

now the padded armor in this game is more likely the typical poormans armor that was padded armor with small metal plates stitched into the seams that gave reasonable protection from slashing blows, but only plate armor is going to stop a hard thrusting blow from a sword or spear.

[Gelgoog]

double post

[Gelgoog]

triple post

[DavidtheDuke]

Yes, modding the building times and/or price of the armor buildings should balance the benefit more. I do notice a definite benefit in battle with armor, bu thte price often doesn't justify

[dopp]

What I meant is that units that already come with some sort of armor when first recruited have those high armor values. I'm proposing that the armor upgrades change to match those values. For example, upgrading from no armor to padded should not give +1 armor, it should give +4 armor to match the armor value of other units that already come with padded armor.

Examples of units that already come with armor (mostly castle units):

Padded = 4 points : Jinetes, Italian Militia
Light Mail = 5 points : Mailed Knights, Swordsmen, Moorish Urban Militia
Heavy Mail = 7 points : Feudal Knights (foot and mounted), Bodyguards
Partial Plate = 8 points : Chivalric Knights (foot and mounted)
Full Plate = 9 points : Late/High Bodyguards
Advanced Plate = 11 points : Gendarmes, Gothic Knights (foot and mounted)

Unarmored = 0 points : Peasants, most advanced units, most militas, making them much weaker than they should be.

As you can see, the difference between coming with even padded armor and coming completely unprotected is incredible.

[Sulla's Dog]

After doing some comparing of unit armor values based on units that already come with some kind of armor, I've come up with the following:

Padded = 4 points
Light Mail/Splint = 5 points
Heavy Mail/Splint = 7 points
Partial Plate = 8 points
Full Plate = 9 points
Advanced Plate (but usually means no shield) = 11 points

The developers have obviously put a lot of effort into armor upgrades. Being able to re-equip your pitiful spear militia with heavy mail is one of the highlights of Medieval 2. However, the upgrades do not deliver in terms of actual gameplay statistics. Each level of upgrade simply gives +1 armor. Upgrading a unit of spear miltia with padded armor gives them just 1 measly point of armor. Italian spear militia that come with padded armor get 4 points straight off. Upgrading a pike unit the full 3 times gives them impressive-looking partial plate graphics but only 3 points of armor, not even comparable to padded armor. By rights they should have 7 points of armor. Worse still, some units skip armor upgrade levels, yet still only give +1 armor. For example, Tercio Pikemen skip padded and go straight to light mail, yet only receive +1 armor for the upgrade.

This interesting arrangement results in the following: a) disillusionment with a key feature of the game (upgrading armor), b) little or no reason to build armorers, c) unfair advantage to units that already come with armor, d) unfair disadvantage to many late-game units (pikemen, musketeers, half-armored cavalry), e) glaring inconsistencies in unit armor values. I am seriously considering reporting this as a bug. Hopefully, this will be moddable when the unpacker is released.

Is this something we can tweak easily once an unpacker is released?

[Antonov]

Well if there are differences between the actual unit statistics and their descriptions that quite seriously supports some people's theory that the game was a pre-"gold" release...

[Remo]

I'm all for the most realistic and responsive gaming experiance posible. So if this can be fixed when/if the patch comes out then fantastic.

[harm]

a scrub town militia should only get +1 for armor upgrade? Is that what your saying? For every upgrade it should be +1 just like in RTW?

It's not possible for militia to wear plate armor, so why is it a big deal if they get +4, when the plate armor wearer still has more armor, they just don't need a upgrade building.

I think this is a good way to reflect the realism of how no armor vs leather armor is drastically different. Leather vs. plate isn't as drastic than nothing at all.

Does it sound like I know what I am talking about? :hmmm:

[harm]

a scrub town militia should only get +1 for armor upgrade? Is that what your saying? For every upgrade it should be +1 just like in RTW?

It's not possible for militia to wear plate armor, so why is it a big deal if they get +4, when the plate armor wearer still has more armor, they just don't need a upgrade building.

I think this is a good way to reflect the realism of how no armor vs leather armor is drastically different. Leather vs. plate isn't as drastic than nothing at all.

Does it sound like I know what I am talking about? :hmmm: