Test: English Archery Versus

[XnARO]

I've always been a big fan of English archery, naturally liking any kind of lethal missile and also being mostly English blooded it makes sense.

Anyway I read some stuff that made me wonder how different it really is in M2 compared to what it was like in M1 where the Longbowmen would win you battle after battle, esspecially infantry battles in Europe, not quite as much with Middle East battles.

Anyhow someone mentioned Venice had the better archers or at least appeared to. I figured I would find out, thought I'd post up the results in case anyone wanted to discuss them.

Heres the practical test.

Units:

1 x (91)Unit of Retinue Longbowmen
1 x (91)Unit of Venetian Archers

Stats: (maxed out with upgrades and experience)

Retinue Longbowmen - Attack 15/8 Defense 19
Venetian Archers - Attack 15/9 Defense 17

Map:

Grassy plain to exclude terrain factors.

Results by difficulty level because everyone plays different levels.

*****************
Retinue Longbowmen - versus - Venetian Archers

M / 63 - 0
H / 66 - 0
VH/ 60 - 0

Everytime the longbowmen wiped out the enemy and with the same results speaking in average terms.

Some methods I used in the test.

At deployment I lined my longbowmen up in as wide a formation as I possibly could so about 2 rows.

Then marched them toward the enemy at walk speed, enemy also walked towards me at walk speed at the same time.

My longbowmen stopped and took aim with the first volley well before the Venetians, say 20/30meters in real terms. A handfull had died before they got into range to return fire.

One they were in range they switched to loose formation and returned fire till it was over.

Every single time it was acted out the same.

Results the same.

I thought about posting pics or whatever but its easier for you to just try it.

Anyone else got any other archers they want to bet can beat Longbows?

Only infantry bow units count, no x-bows either although I think they would all get owned too..

[savage_rabbit]

Dismounted Dvor Archers.

If you want to try regular Yeoman Archers instead of Retinue, Norse Archers can beat those and are half the price of Retinue Longbowmen.

[Petavian Belgae]

Since crecy the longbow were ther best in west Europe
Ask the french nights and venetian crossbow

[sera]

Since crecy the longbow were ther best in west Europe
Ask the french nights and venetian crossbow

Not turning this into a historical debate, but there's a reason for the outcome of this famous battle beyond the simple superiority of the longbow. IIRC the Venetian mercenaries were force marched through rain and mud, their crossbow drawstrings were wet - reducing range and power, whereas the waiting and rested longbowmen could remove the drawstring in the rain to keep it dry. To make matters even worse, the pavise shields of the crossbowmen had not even arrived at the battlefield when the French commanders ordered the Venetians to attack...

[Rogue Warrior]

Not turning this into a historical debate, but there's a reason for the outcome of this famous battle beyond the simple superiority of the longbow. IIRC the Venetian mercenaries were force marched through rain and mud, their crossbow drawstrings were wet - reducing range and power, whereas the waiting and rested longbowmen could remove the drawstring in the rain to keep it dry. To make matters even worse, the pavise shields of the crossbowmen had not even arrived at the battlefield when the French commanders ordered the Venetians to attack...

Although it should be mentioned it was the English longbowmen who had been marching and fighting for weeks and were suffering from cold, wet, hunger and disease when they faced a much larger, fresh and fully rested French force at Agincourt and still won a famous victory.

The superiority of the longbow was surely a factor here as well as the mud and confined space which undoutably hampered the heavily armoured French. Imagine 4000 archers firing an average of at least 6 arrows a minute each, thats 24000 arrows a minute with the power, range and armour piercing bodkin tip of the longbow. Something I would not want to be on the receiving end of.

[jimbob]

Jannisary archers might stand a chance, but only if you rush the longbows and engage in mellee. It'd depend on who's faster.

[Dagda]

Anyways, just did the Scots guard vs Retinue 3 more times on Hard difficutly. First two, I switched sides for each and Scots guard clearly won by a rather large margin both times.

3rd round, I gave Retinue two armour upgrades and a weapon upgrade and the Scots Guard no upgrades - the Retinue had a cost advantage as well after this. It was neck and neck the entire round when both units ran out of ammo. Scots had 27 men left, Retinue had 24 and the Longbowen began to charge for melee. Retinue got destroyed and routed after 5 seconds.

So it seems the Scots guard are the overpowered?

[Machinator]

Anyone else got any other archers they want to bet can beat Longbows?

I'll take Sherwood Archers for 400 florins, Alex.

[Delexit]

I'll take Sherwood Archers for 400 florins, Alex.

Sherwood archers : ive met'em in " cotum battles" - is possible to get'em durin UK "grand campaign" ? and how ?
thx

[Machinator]

Sherwood archers : ive met'em in " cotum battles" - is possible to get'em durin UK "grand campaign" ? and how ?
thx

Master Woodmans Guild - which they have to offer you. I don't think anyone other than England can get this guild/unit. It was, of course, in Nottingham.

[Petavian Belgae]

and what about that how do they called the "upgraded longbow"
"Yeoman" ore something?

[Oddball_E8]

eeeh... you really should use the standard formation since the ai uses the standard formation... and also, you should spread out your troops in loose formation when the enemy does...

just to keep the tests as even as possible (i did this comparing retinue longbowmen against pavise crossbowmen... the longbowmen won out on being faster firing)

[LoZz]

longbow is the best because they do the damage of a crossbow but can fire quicker, so they get two shots for the crossbows every one!

[Rogue Warrior]

I agree you can get the sherwood archers by allowing a woodsmans guild to be built in your castle - you get offered one if you recruit alot of longbow archers of any variety in a settlement. I have level 1 woodmans guild in my English campaign which offers exp 1 bonus to archers so I am asuming later level guild will give me the sherwood fellas. Hope that helps. I kinda wish mine was in Nottingham but mine is in Caen - at least its nearer the front lines.

By the way LONGBOWS RULE - simple as that. Makes you think that today a fit guy has trouble pulling back a 90 pound bow but the average draw strength of the longbows found on the Mary Rose was 150 pounds - Wow.

[Dagda]

Just did Scots Guard vs Retinue Longbowmen. Scots guard decimated them 50 to 29, but then they ran out of ammo. The English were still firing, so maybe they have more ammo. Anyways, the Retinue routed instantly when I ordered the charge (typical English ).

[TenkiSoratoti]

Just did Scots Guard vs Retinue Longbowmen. Scots guard decimated them 50 to 29, but then they ran out of ammo. The English were still firing, so maybe they have more ammo. Anyways, the Retinue routed instantly when I ordered the charge (typical English ).

I hope you're speaking in the games sake not historically because then I'd have to call you ignorant.

[Dagda]

I hope you're speaking in the games sake not historically because then I'd have to call you ignorant.

I hope you're being sarcastic and not serious, or else I'd have to call you ignorant.

[thefish7]

longbow is the best because they do the damage of a crossbow but can fire quicker, so they get two shots for the crossbows every one!

Has anyone tested RoF? Shouldn't the longbow fire about 4:1 on a lighter crossbow, and 6 or 7 to 1 on a heavy crossbow?

[mercja]

English bows rock, they get the job done.

[Kanfoosh]

Scots guard use longbowmen and are the ELITE ranged units, the french king's guards.