Parthian Roster.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Here's what I think should go in the Parthian Roster, please note that historical accuracy is a tricky one here. But I want to see the Parthians for sure.

Early Game:

Infantry:
Cheap spearmen.
Axemen.
Greek Theuropoi deserters(from the Selecuids)

Cavarly:

Nomadic Saka Archer cav
Nomadic Dahae Cataphracts(heavily upgraded cataphracts)
Early Cataphracts(strong, not very heavily armoured).

Late Game:

Cavarly:

Pusthigbhan Cataphracts( Yes they are from the Sassanid Roster, but I have no doubt to believe that the Parthian Empire only switched in dynasty wise. The rest remained the same except the name was changed.)
Savaran Cataphracts(recruited wise from the Attila campaign map).
Zhayaden(Immortal Cavarly).
Parthian Royal Cataphracts.
Parthian Golden Cataphracts(a what if, fantasy unit).

Please make cataphracts multi-coloured. I am sick of having grey skinned cataphracts. Below here is TuCot's well done Parthian Reskin. I'm linking the image url.

http://i.hizliresim.com/p9EMlo.jpg

Infantry:

Armoured spearmen
Armoured Immortals
Armored axemen.
Sassaind (Late game units with maces).

This is my roster, but I want others to have their input into this. We can discuss on a finalized roster. Plus if we can discuss more rosters, we can help the team fast with finishing them off.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

And some more stuff:

More importantly, they need different types of horse archers, more steppe archers, as reading from their history they did receive support from their allies and they made the bulk of their armies( I might be wrong in this) So like Carthage recruits mercenaries, so should the Parthians be able to recruit steppe archers and so on . And I'd remain their infantry to be as it is, there is some evidence of a royal strong infantry unit; but apart from that there wasn't much for infantry to do. This is a cavalry faction, and it needs more variation within its armored cavalry and so on. If they have archer spear men; that again would be awesome. And more individualizes in their rosters.


http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/i...c=17662&page=2
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/.../Texts/Ammian/




Some pics:


parthian_army.jpg


Batalla%2Bde%2BNisibis%2BLegio%2BII%2BParthica%2Bcontra%2Blos%2Bpartos%2B217%2Bd.C..jpg




Callinicum%2B4.JPG
romansparthians.jpg
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRcK-EBA7BC1zRLR9hXzdAwkGkI1Tet61tGrNKEf_iiS-EQ2uB
7yhnfx1.jpg




And some info from this book by Kieth Hunt; it talks about '' ten tribes of Iseral'' stuff; however the stuff on Parthia is quite awesome, I would model their roster to resemble what is written here:


The Parthian and Roman armies, both headed by their
emperors, clashed in what must have been one of the fiercest (and
bloodiest) battles ever fought in the ancient world. What
occurred was not merely a battle, but the death struggle of two
mighty empires. Citing the classical writers, Rawlinson states:


"The battle of Nisibis ... was the fiercest and best contested
which was ever fought between the rival powers. It lasted ...
three days. The army of Artabanus was numerous and
well-appointed: like almost every Parthian force, it was strong
in cavalry and archers; and it had ... a novel addition of ...
soldiers, clad in complete armour, and carrying long spears or
lances, who were mounted on camels ... The Romans suffered
greatly from the bows of the horse-archers, and from the lances
of the corps mounted on camels; and ... as they retired, they
strewed the ground with spiked balls and other contrivances for
injuring the feet of animals." 85


Ctesiphon, the "western capital" known to the Romans, was
nowhere near the actual homeland of the Parthians. It is possible
that Ctesiphon was an administrative center for governing their
western provinces, but that other "capitals" existed eastward in
their empire. The Scythian nature of the Parthians is well-known,
and Scythian reverence for the dead was an historic trait. When
Darius attacked the Scythians many centuries earlier near the
Black Sea, he was warned that retribution would be most dire if
he desecrated Scythian cemeteries. 84 Given the historic
relationship between Parthia and the Sacae tribes of Scythia, it
is possible that Scythian tribes furnished troops for this battle
as well.


The invading Romans met the Parthian defenders at the battle
of Carrhae in 53 B.C. (near the modern border of Syria and
Turkey). The Romans suffered one of the worst defeats in the
history of the Roman Empire; half the 40,000 man army perished, a
quarter fled, and 10,000 Romans were captured. Crassus, a member
of the triumvirate ruling the Roman Empire, was slain. Parthia's
treatment of the captured Romans was unusually magnanimous,
especially considering that the Romans were the aggressors. The
10,000 captured Romans were resettled east of the Caspian Sea,
given wives, and later even served as Parthian soldiers. 44
Rawlinson comments that the Parthians:


"... acquired by their use of the bow a fame like that [of] the
English archers ... at Crecy and Agincourt. They forced the
arrogant Romans to ... allow that there was at least one nation
in the world which could meet them on equal terms ... They
henceforth obtained recognition from the Graeco-Roman writers ...
as the second Power in the world." 45


Richard Frye's "Heritage of Persia" also notes that, after
the battle of Carrhae: "the world was divided between Rome and
Parthia according to Greek and Latin authors." 46






This was no wild
mob from the steppes, but a disciplined and prepared military
force. The Parthians maintained both a heavy cavalry and a light
cavalry. The light cavalry was composed of fleet horses with
riders armed with bows and arrows. These horsemen could rain down
upon an enemy a fairly continuous barrage of arrows as they could
ride in shifts, with each troop resupplying itself from
camel-borne arrow carriers when their supply became exhausted in
battle. 41
The heavy cavalry must have been truly frightening to the
Roman footsoldier. Rawlinson describes them in the following
manner:




"The strong horses selected for this service were clad almost
wholly in mail. Their head, neck, chest, even their sides and
flanks, were protected by scale-armour of brass or iron ... Their
riders had cuirasses and cuisses [breastplates and leg armor] of
the same materials, and helmets of burnished iron. For an
offensive weapon they carried a long ... spear or pike. They
formed a serried line in battle, bearing down with great weight
on the enemy whom they charged, and standing firm as an iron wall
against the charges that were made against them." 42


In other words, the Romans were opposed by a superior
phalanx of armored Parthian cavalry. With their armored mounts,
body armor, and long spears, the Parthian heavy cavalry must have
looked like mounted European Lancers from the middle ages! Again
we see another parallel between the ancient Parthians and the
Europeans of the feudal period. The Parthian heavy cavalry sounds
like a huge formation of feudal knights armed for combat instead
of jousts. Indeed, the Encyclopaedia Britannica openly called the
Parthian heavy cavalry "knights."


The Parthian and Roman armies, both headed by their
emperors, clashed in what must have been one of the fiercest (and
bloodiest) battles ever fought in the ancient world. What
occurred was not merely a battle, but the death struggle of two
mighty empires. Citing the classical writers, Rawlinson states:


"The battle of Nisibis ... was the fiercest and best contested
which was ever fought between the rival powers. It lasted ...
three days. The army of Artabanus was numerous and
well-appointed: like almost every Parthian force, it was strong
in cavalry and archers; and it had ... a novel addition of ...
soldiers, clad in complete armour, and carrying long spears or
lances, who were mounted on camels ... The Romans suffered
greatly from the bows of the horse-archers, and from the lances
of the corps mounted on camels; and ... as they retired, they
strewed the ground with spiked balls and other contrivances for
injuring the feet of animals." 85


This kind of fighting went on for three full days. The
armor-clad Parthians must have looked like medieval knights as
they charged the Romans with levelled lances. The Romans,
however, were ingenious in countering these assaults by maiming
the Parthian animals. The killing was awesome. It is recorded
that the bodies of the dead were:


"piled to such a height that the manoeuvres of the troops were
impeded by them, and at last the two contending hosts could
scarcely see one another!" 86

And please make sure all Cataphracts have the Attila style implemented with them, along with all facemasks.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

The thing with the Parthians is, that we reflect them with Horse archers and cataphracts, and by around 100 ad, they may begin to show signs of developing a Sassanid roster.

There is this unit called Azad from Magnar's Mod for Rome 2, I really loved this unit and would like to see this implemented in the Parthian roster.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...arthia-Preview
http://i.imgur.com/hzKXM56.jpg

Grivpanvar i Palhavanig : Parthian royal late bodyguards : These late elite Royal bodyguards were now a very prestigious unit of a Royal

Zhrada Shivatir : Parthian nobles horse archers : Beeing the cornerstone of any Parthian cavalry force, these were for sure one of the biggest part of nobles or elite cavalry, also known as "Azadan".

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Pushtigban (#1 old appearance #2 new): These impressive and famous units were elite noble chosen cataphracts, or Royal cataphracts. They were extremely heavy, beeing the tanks of the ancient world. The combined the weight of their entirely cladded, chosen, crossed breeds of Nisean horses and their own body armour, to be the heavyest cavalry unit in the world by far. This was probably sufficient, even at relatively low speed, to devastating any heavy infantry line, including the seleucid phalanxes. Entirely covered, using a kontos for the charge, at short range, and an heavy mace made of steel and lead for the melee, they were pure infantry breakers, pushing with a great and unstoppable blow and then hammering with no mercy the troops in disarray. All this, of course, was performed after a very long skirmishing and a non-ending rain of arrow performed during a whole day, if not several, by day and by night, by thousands of uncatchable horse-archers... The Pushtigban then always delivered the "coup de grâce" of crushing, decisive blow. Performed at great scale, they wiped out the Seleucids, disintegrating the legions of Crassus, after beeing crushed themselves by the Sassanids.
http://www.ancient-battles.com/catw/parthia.htm

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Zradhan Spahbade : Parthian Royal bodyguards : With no doubt the best equipment, training and skills among all nobles, they had the chance to be knights appointed to the protection of the king himself. They were, at the beginning of the empire, well equipped, having some intriguing metal masks since the beginning, mostly to defend themselves against arrows. Even their hands were covered by pieces of metal and chainmail. For the legs, the lorica hamata was relatively cheap and practical. Like all Parthian nobles, they were highly versatile, beeing archers, spearmen with the long kontos, and swordsmen of great skills and fierciness.

[Linke]

Immortals/Zhayedan are ahistorical for Parthians, and in all likelyhood also for Sassanids.

Pustigban and "royal cataphracts" are really the same things.

I would do first tribal units and later you get an aor system with different cataphracts like the roman system, based partly on the geographic layout and the 7 great houses of Parthia (Ispabudhan in north, Mihran, Qaren, Suren in Sakastan and so on). Or at least difference between northwestern, eastern and rest cataphracts. Or you could do it like this: 1 royal cataphracts/pustigban, the eliter retinue/elite, 2 Ashkanig/Arsacid cataphracts recruited from cities of mesopotamia where they settle, with limit, and then Iranshahr cataphracts representing the mass of feudal retinues from highland Iran with more eastern equipment of steppe influence. No mails at all but scales almost only and some plate eastwards. That famous dura graffiti where the rider is being shown with what most people think think is mail and a chest of plates is actualy scale. Is the impression from speaking with a reenactor of Sassanid period. Mails only come in sasanid and in their later period.

Azad simply means noble, those formed the Savaran/Asawaran (compare with old Persian Asabari and Sanskrit people Ashvakas) wich means roughly horsemen (cataphracts). Savaran is a better name for cataphracts, there isn't an actual word meaning cataphract afaik.

[zombieflanders]

The difference between the Parthians of ~200BCE and the Sassanids of ~400CE was huge, and not just because they were well over half a millenium apart. The Parthians in AE's timeframe wouldn't have been all that far removed from their more nomadic Parni ancestors. That means a larger dependence on horse archers and other lighter cav, and almost no standing army. As Linke points out, the Immortals didn't exist in the Parthian Empire (although there is some mention of them among the Sassanids), and there would have been no "Pushtigban" as we know that existed among the royal families. Some sort of cataphracts, yes, but it would have been called something different both because of linguistics and purpose. I think that infantry should be almost non-existent for the faction itself (again: no real standing army), with AOR used to represent the local troops that would have been called up as needed.

[Linke]

Actualy that's a nice idea, the faction has no infantry at all. Instead different aor (first Hyrcanians, then westwards they get quite good infantry from Median mountains and then also archers from Pars and all that. The point being that the infantry segment shifts because the Parthians never settle as infantry no matter where you expand.

[Willhelm123]

We use English names most of the time, we do use native terms but usually followers by an English designation.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

While I am in agreement with the idea of having Cataphracts from several different regions, this will be implemented. Are you telling me what DEI has created for their ''Pushtibighan'' cataphracts is false? You are experts on Parthia, while I know only a bit. There aren't many written records on the Parthian's army. Attila has the perfect representation of how satrpas ruled under the Parthians. There has to be mercenary infantry or cheap spear-men. Many mods and other games have had infantry. I would like you two to help me in developing the roster. The roster I am proposing is ahistorical, because we do not know what exactly existed in the Parthian army. I am adding in those Parthian cataphracts that have bows with them.


So revised roster - please add in your suggestions and opinions.






Savaran Catraphatcs - the elite of the elite.
Ashkaning Cataphracts - recruited from the areas of Babylon.
Iranshahr cataphtracts - regular cataphracts from the areas of Highland Iran.
Bow/Lance Cataphracts.
Ispabuhdhan Cataphracts - from Ispabudhan
Mihran Cataphracts
Quaren Cataphracts
Suren Catapheacts.


Horse Archers.
Heavy Horse archers.
Parthian Archers.


Infantry:


Mercinary Hillmen
Mercanry Spearmen
Mercany Theuropoi.

[Linke]

Well you're right we're forced to inovate to some degree with Parthia, especially for it's first half of existence.

DEI may not be wrong using Pusthigban, it represents something wich must have existed just with an anachronistic (most likely) term..

For the cataphracts I think basing it on feudal houses/parthians 7 clans is not as good as basing on regions (since they owned regions all over Iran). So following roughly the layout of Sasanid empire far later (But reflecting earlier divisions):
Adurbadagan/Media/Atropatene area cataphracts (probably more Armenian influenced if anything), Mesopotamia area cataphracts (+ rest of iran), Bactria/Eastern area cataphracts (steppe-saka influenced). And then the standard Parthian cataphracts (wich might be the mesopotamia one and the others are uniquer + a royal one. Savarn isn't the elite of the elite, every cataphracts is a savaran

[Willhelm123]

Thats a hell of a lot of Cataphracts, surely the had some lighter cavalry.

Mercinary Hillmen
Mercanry Spearmen
Mercany Theuropoi.

Come on dude have another attempt at spelling it

[Linke]

The point is those cataphracts should be limited each, think like the roman legions they are all really the same unit
Sorry for being inconsistent and giving you three approaches to cataphracts:

1 parthian houses/clans (like mihran; ispabudhan)
2 regions (like adurbadagan, eastern region...)
3 royal and other (with Arsacid/ashakanig in Mesopotamia and nearby and IRanshahr in rest, can work with the unique median and eastern ones as well.)

[zombieflanders]

What little we know of Parthian armies breaks down into two main categories: cataphracts and horse archers. The bulk of the units should come from those two categories. I'd suggest most of them be broken out along regions (ex., Armenian Cataphracts, Saka Horse Archers, etc), with "royal" units reserved for general's bodyguards. As I said before, zero Parthian infantry, they came from conquered areas (Media and the Caucasus/Iberia) or Hellenic mercenaries. The between AOR or not is up to the modders, obviously. Maybe with late-game tech/reforms, camel lancers (not camelphracts!) could be introduced, as they were known to have been part of late Parthian armies.

[Willhelm123]

Absolutely no infantry seems a little extreme. We've been pretty authentic on our steppe roster and even those have infantry units, even if 2 are just dismounted versions of existing units.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Well you're right we're forced to inovate to some degree with Parthia, especially for it's first half of existence.

DEI may not be wrong using Pusthigban, it represents something wich must have existed just with an anachronistic (most likely) term..

For the cataphracts I think basing it on feudal houses/parthians 7 clans is not as good as basing on regions (since they owned regions all over Iran). So following roughly the layout of Sasanid empire far later (But reflecting earlier divisions):
Adurbadagan/Media/Atropatene area cataphracts (probably more Armenian influenced if anything), Mesopotamia area cataphracts (+ rest of iran), Bactria/Eastern area cataphracts (steppe-saka influenced). And then the standard Parthian cataphracts (wich might be the mesopotamia one and the others are uniquer + a royal one. Savarn isn't the elite of the elite, every cataphracts is a savaran

Thats a hell of a lot of Cataphracts, surely the had some lighter cavalry.




Come on dude have another attempt at spelling it

I want to add in more cataphract because Parthia is always shown as a lackluster roster. They do need some various cataphracts in order to make them diverse. But I'm open to the idea of limiting them. I do not like limits because the Parthians still managed to win victories against the Romans. Of course they would have plenty of camel cataphracts, camel spearmen, camel archers, archers, light cavarly, armoured sword cavarly.

That was written in a bit of haste, as I didn't have enough time to write it.

I just named them Savaran as it sounded bad ass.

The Mesopotaiman, Media, and the Eastern Cataphracts sound awesome.

The point is those cataphracts should be limited each, think like the roman legions they are all really the same unit
Sorry for being inconsistent and giving you three approaches to cataphracts:

1 parthian houses/clans (like mihran; ispabudhan)
2 regions (like adurbadagan, eastern region...)
3 royal and other (with Arsacid/ashakanig in Mesopotamia and nearby and IRanshahr in rest, can work with the unique median and eastern ones as well.)

So should we go with these three approaches? I like this idea. I can't see how its like the Roman Legions, its a bit hard to concieve it like that.

What little we know of Parthian armies breaks down into two main categories: cataphracts and horse archers. The bulk of the units should come from those two categories. I'd suggest most of them be broken out along regions (ex., Armenian Cataphracts, Saka Horse Archers, etc), with "royal" units reserved for general's bodyguards. As I said before, zero Parthian infantry, they came from conquered areas (Media and the Caucasus/Iberia) or Hellenic mercenaries. The between AOR or not is up to the modders, obviously. Maybe with late-game tech/reforms, camel lancers (not camelphracts!) could be introduced, as they were known to have been part of late Parthian armies.

I agree with the diverse region concept. Are you sure the Parthians had no zero infantry? I am sure that the Parthians would have employed various infantry. They will still remain to the degree, but very rarely. Did Parthia rely on infantry when it fought against the Selecuids? Or did it rely on cataphracts and horse archers? Camel lancers sound really nice.

Absolutely no infantry seems a little extreme. We've been pretty authentic on our steppe roster and even those have infantry units, even if 2 are just dismounted versions of existing units.

I agree, but I wonder if there's any historical evidence for Parthian infantry.

Alright, let me revise and you guys give your opinion. They were still legends in their own might standing up to Rome.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

This is the late roster that reflects both mid and late era:

The idea is that I do not want all the catpahracts to be the same. They can have different styles of armor, to reflect their progress and evolution. Some might have nomadic armor, while some might adopt Roman standards, etc.

Tier 2/3:

Elite Cavarly:
Royal Cataphracts - or Savarn.
Mihran Cataphracts
Ispabudhan cataphracts.
Royal Camel Cataphracts
Royal Camel Horse archers
Royal Horse archers.
Arsacid Cataphracts
Iranshar Cataphracts
Ashakanig cataphracts.

Medium Cavarly:
Saka Cataphracts
Saka General Bodyguard
Aburdbaghan Cataphracts
Mesopatimain Cataphracts - I like the idea of having cataphracts with distinct style.
Northern Cataphracts - from the mountains of North Iran, have nomadic style feature armor.
Eastern Cataphracts
Heavily armoured Camel Cataphracts.
Camel Lancers.
Trigis Cataphracts.
Horse archer cataphracts.

Basic:

Saka horse archers
Saka Lancer cavarly
Saka spearmen
Hillmen
Greek Spearmen
Deserted Roman soldiers - some evidence that the Parthians used deserted Romans or prisoners of war to fight for them.
Persian Spearmen - recruited from the Persian provinces.

[Linke]

This is the late roster that reflects both mid and late era:

The idea is that I do not want all the catpahracts to be the same. They can have different styles of armor, to reflect their progress and evolution. Some might have nomadic armor, while some might adopt Roman standards, etc.

Tier 2/3:

Elite Cavarly:
Royal Cataphracts - or Savarn.
Mihran Cataphracts (nevermind what I said about the 7 houses including Ispabudhan and Mihran, they are anachronistic and better represented by the Iranshahr cataphract, nothing really to make them unique or in big numbers)
Ispabudhan cataphracts. (see above)
Royal Camel Cataphracts (camel cataphracts?)
Royal Camel Horse archers
Royal Horse archers.
Arsacid Cataphracts
Ashakanig cataphracts. (ashkanig litteraly means Arsacid in Parthian, same unit)
Iranshar Cataphracts (if the adurbadagan and turan represent north east and west and the mesopotamia cataphract represents mesopotamia this should represent the rest of Iranian provinces, no unique cataphracts really possible in those)

Medium Cavarly:
Saka Cataphracts
Saka General Bodyguard
Aburdbaghan Cataphracts (see northern cataphracts)
Mesopatimain Cataphracts - I like the idea of having cataphracts with distinct style. (see Tigris cataphracts, there may be several kinds of mesopotamian cataphracts though, how they would look different I don't know)
Northern Cataphracts - from the mountains of North Iran, have nomadic style feature armor. - (I think this is covered by the Adurbadagan in north west (media) and Turanian in northeast (transcaspia)
(Eastern) Turanian Cataphracts - (eastern cataphracts is to generic, instead if we want it to represent eastern steppe influenced ones rename it Khwarezmian cataphracts or Turanian cataphracts, Turan means the whole transcaspia province)
Heavily armoured Camel Cataphracts. (Camel cataphracts?)
Camel Lancers.
Tigis Dura/Hatra/mesopotamia Cataphracts (See mesopotamian ones. I would rather tie it to some special city, Dura or Hatra cataphracts wich we know existed from reliefs in those Mesopotamian cities, see ospreys Rome the desertfrontier)
Horse archer cataphracts.

Basic:

Saka horse archers
Saka Lancer cavarly
Saka spearmen
Hillmen
Greek Spearmen
Deserted Roman soldiers - some evidence that the Parthians used deserted Romans or prisoners of war to fight for them.
Persian Spearmen - recruited from the Persian provinces
theres a lot of infantry you can add but i'd at least have:
Persian archers, Takabara (in game terms heavier hillmen), mesopotamian infantries (should be separate from Persians, no generic eastern thing here), Median/Adurbadagani infantry (quite heavy melee, think armenian swordsmen in mods)
Arab soldiers in the south, people forget that the sassanid and Parthian rule extened over much of arabia.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Parthian Roster indepth:

This is the roster for early mid game.

Tier 1 roster:

Elite Cavarly:

Saka WarLords - recruited from the tribes of the Dahae, a feature taken from Barbarian invasions, recruit generals to fight in your army with their contigencies.
Parthian Early Cataphracts - very rudimentary form of the Cataphracts - I intend to evolve them as they become much larger and much equipped.
Parthian Bodyguard
Parthian Royal Horse Archers.
Parthian Royal Cataphracts - a late unit but may have existed, they are only 1 capped unit until they rise later in promeniance.
Saka Cataphracts - this will be the heavy force of the Parthian army when facing Selecuid armies.

Medium Cavarly:
Azat Knights - not to sure about them.
Lancer Cavarly - Cavarly armed with lances, persian influenced.
Camel Cataphracts
Camel archers
Came horse archers
Parthian Archers.

Basic Cavarly:
Basic Skrimishers
Basic Saka Cataphractgs
Basic Horse archers
Basic Ligth cavarly.

[Sheridan]

I like the incentive of creating this and the interesting discussion you've got going. Without picking any favorite, the Parthian roster is definitely one of those I'm looking forward to the most.