Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

[Maetharin]

@DaveMurray, actually Phillip V was a great strategist and not too bad tactically...

At Cynoscephalae he did what was possible, since both of the armies were surprised to meet.
If he hadn´t attacked the romans on his right he would have lost the higher ground and the initiative, and therefore all room for manoeuvres.
If he had beaten the romans there, I wonder what would have happened.
I still think the romans would have won, since even with the left wing beaten, I think the right wing would have been able to hold out until the left had returned to the battlefield once some sort of order had been reestablished.

Perseus himself was badly inexperienced, so no wonder he was defeated.
But Phillip´s strategic foresight enabled Perseus to wage war on a greater scale than even his father.
After Cynoscephalae Phillip expanded northwards rapidly, enfranchising many thracian tribes and resettling them inside Macedonian territory, whereas settling Macedonians in Thrace.
Thus Perseus had way more manpower behind him than Phillip.

And actually, I don´t think that Alexander would have fared that much different to phyrrus against the Romans.
Pyrrhus phalanx itself was most likely even more suitable for for facing them, since he made it more flexible, but even then the romans never were beaten by the Phalanx itself.
They were pushed back, but never broken, the final blow always came from somewhere else.


@KAM, I really like your idea, but I think it needs extensive testing, since it could potentially completely break gameplay^^
That´s why I love these public tests of yours^^
I have some ideas which I´ll edit in afterwards, I need to think them through thoroughly^^

Best regards

[KAM 2150]

New idea for experimental pack

Since AI is unable to rest and manage fatigue and current fatigue penalties are reduced due to that I've come up with new idea to use for experimental pack.

Since if is hard to rest while being inside a battlefield, especially if someone went into exhausted state (if you go to the gym and completly exhaust yourself, even oppening a bottle of water is difficult ;P) it would take him a lot to recover and even if someone would recover, he would need a lot more to be in "fresh" state if we go with game terms.

Sooo...what if the pack would make so that it is almost impossible to recover from a fatigue state, but threshold is increased a lot, so it is very hard to reach exhausted state.

Going into details, I would increase threshold for fatigue level a lot, so for example it would take at least 20 minutes of being in melee for hoplites to get exhausted, but the penalties for it would be much, much more severe then now. Reserves would mean more, while also being more AI friendly. Like I wrote, it would take a long time to get units into exhausted state, but also each level of fatigue would mean a lot more.

Pros:
-much more AI friendly as AI does not rest it's units
-requires much more careful commiting of certain units
-reserves matter
-probably easier pullback from melee if attacked units is exhausted and units that is pulling back is not

Cons:
-pullingback exhausted units in order to let them rest would not mean much

[The Tribunal]

I like this idea. It adds another realistic element to the game and it would complement the shorter deployment zones mod nicely, adding another reason to have reserves at the ready.

[FlashHeart07]

@DaveMurray a bit off topic so I will make it short. Historians and especially the ones in ancient times were often if not always influenced by the society so everything they wrote has be taken with "a grain of salt". Even today people are not as objective as they say they are.

And now back to topic.
The new idea sounds great, KAM
The con is that it would mean nothing to recycle units but seeing as this is already broken considering how the engine works its not much of a loss.
And as heavy troops get exhausted much quicker than light units, light units will have an even greater purpose as flanking units. Tiring heavy units and then hitting them with easy maneuverable and fresh light units will begin to make a difference.
But then the whole reinforcement problem becomes even greater. They wont mean anything.


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[KAM 2150]

Does anyone remember how it was done in UI to show exact values? I know it was somehow possible in Attila to display the value to show stuff like 7.5 (or written as 75), because now if unit has speed of 7.99 it is displayed as 7.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

I like the fatigue changes idea.

Some more feedback on the unit speed pack though. At first while I liked the changes, it was only in 1 army v 1 army field battles that it worked well for me.

In siege battles, ambush battles, and multi army battles it became more tedious and unfun.

I finally stopped using it in my last two 100 plus test camapigns with por, but I kept the deployment zone changes which I really like.

I'm really not sure what to make of it honestly. After stopping using it, everytime I am in a field battle I think "man it would be cool if the speed changes were in effect," but the draw backs in siegesis just too much.

I think maybe if it was more clear what units could move at what speeds it might be helpful.

I think i'll probably try to give it another run with my next campaign. But i'll probably come to the same conclusions.

Perhaps if overall unit speed was a bit faster but the slower. Or non existent running for the heaviest units was kep in place but they marched faster.


I'd definately like to see flanking and skirmishing troops have a mobillity advantage as that would give you a reason to use them compared to heavy troops, but not make heavy troops too slow to be useful.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Third and final post on the subject. For some reason this phone only let's me type so much at once before it starts acting goofy.


So with the ideal speed changes in effect, you'd have for example Rome fighting barbarians play out like this.

The Roman heavy/very heavy infantry line slowly advances while the barbarian troops can run around and manuver for the most part and skirmishing/ cavalry troops of both sides are manuvering even more around all the melee troops fighting their intented targets or exercising tactical advantages.


Two Greek armies fighting might see hoplites/pikes slowly advancing towards each other while peltasts and other skirmishing troops vie for positional advantages/counter skirmishing and cavalry fight off other cavalry so they can get a positional advantage vs other infantry.

The idea looks very cool in my head, but I am not sure if you can make the speed changes actually make such a tactical and dynamic battlefield a reality in Rome 2.

What do you think KAM?

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Ideally the speeds would make the most sense to me like this;

Light cavalry are the fastest, can run circles around anything but die if caught by anything.
Medium cavalry are next fastest, capable of outrunning everything but heavy cavalry.
Heavy cavalry are slower than mediums but still faster than infantry at a run, perhaps the lightest infantry could catch them while running and the horse trotting.

The lightest skirmishing infantry would be very fast. Slingers, unarmoured javelin men, perhaps also the bulk of naked shock troops also as fast as skirmishers.

Light armour shock troops would be fast, not as fast as purely naked units but still faster than other infantry.

Light melee units would be next, capable of almost catching skirmishing troops, but not quite unless the skirmishing troops were slowed from fatigue.

Medium infantry next still capable of running, but at a slower speed than running usually modifies.

Heavy infantry are then the next slowest, here you start with the running speed being a minimal (though still noticable, not non existent) speed increase.

Very heavy infantry, normal hoplites and heavier (light and militia hoplites should share light infantry or medium infantry speeds), , pike infantry should be the slowest, with running having almost no or no speed increase.


This way all but the heaviest infantry can still have some mobillity increase from running, but the lighter the troop is the more mobillity advantage they have.


Although if I understand it correctly, there are only so many internal unit classes you can assigned weight too, so everything would have to fit into those, right?

[FlashHeart07]

It shouldnt be too difficult to add a speed bonus to sieges? I know this would remove the new speed values but we would still have them in field battles.


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[KAM 2150]

Well, the main problem is that even if we somehow find a way to buff both parties at a siege remember this...it will make cavalry and light infantry move much much faster, since the increase would need to be at least around 50-100% to make a difference. I guess just buffing the minimum speed values would be the best solution for it.

[FlashHeart07]

Ofc only if it is possible to find a value that doesnt screw with the unit speed for certain units. Its all or nothing as always.


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[Babajan]

Could the siege issue be tackled a different way? Could arriving units have a second deployment zone not as far as the map edge?

Could the battle timers be changed or added to? Could they be changed from 20, 40, 60 minutes to 20, 30, 40, 50 & 60? That way players could better tune their battles to adjust for slow arrivals.

I use both both mods and like them.

[hoho96]

so I've been enjoying the speed thing for a while, but something was always killing it for me when you order a unit to attack (double clicking mind you) and the unit gets into charging distance, the charge rarely occurs and the opposing units usually end up walking into each other which looks really off :/

[meerkatology]

really great to have deployzone , if for no other reason than not having to wait with battle on max speed just for the armies to get close ;p
speed overhaul sounds awesome too. jav infantry will actually be useful now instead of just going to archers/slingers; however, seiges are unbearable as is even on max game speed. like others said, it would kinda kill sieges tho
tho I personally feel pikes are at a good place even now

[KAM 2150]

Next week I have a deadline on finishing my MA Thesis so I will finally have time to go back into DeI modding

[Babajan]

I didn't know you could get a masters in pikes vs. swords.