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Thread: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

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  1. #1
    Laetus
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    My thoughts on your 2 ideas.

    #1. I don't think its either realistic, nor necessary.

    First off, as military man myself, I can attest that discipline in ranks does not equate to faster movement in a tactical situation when experienced first hand. Obviously we no longer form ranks and march towards our enemies now-a-days, but I've seen it on the parade square and during bayonet drills. When ranks are formed, and even with experienced infantry, the mean pace is always slower than a loose formation. With bayonets fixed, we would advance at a measured pace in order to maintain our formation and cohesiveness (again, only for effect upon a seated and watching crowd, but this effect would be pretty much identical what an actual enemy would feel). What we lose in speed, we make up for in in concentrated and precise shock value upon impact, and protection to the man to your right and left granted by a closed and tight formation.

    If your intent was to demonstrate a "civilized" societies faster deployment and marching times over a loose rabble such as barbarians, the only real way to do that would be from the campaign screen. Marching in ranks over well maintained roads, over say 6-8 hours a day, a disciplined force will start to pull ahead over a non-disciplined one noticeably in only a single day. Probably by an actual few kilometers. This is from a multitude of factors including training in just such long marches with heavy kit, scheduled and strictly controlled breaks and feeding/hydrating times, and especially the time saved by a quick and orderly setup/tear down of a camp (this alone could mean an advantage of up to 2 hours depending on the sides involved).

    I know that the Forced March option was removed, but that right there is pretty much the advantage that would be granted to the more civilized factions, at least within their own controlled territory where their infrastructure could amplify their discipline's effect. I'm not saying it should be brought back (I like it without it), but there it is.

    From a logical and realistic aspect, #1 just doesn't fit with the rest of the awesomeness this mod brings to the table. From a game play aspect, I actually wouldn't feel justified to give an educated opinion.

    #2 I love the idea!

    I honestly would never use it, for I would much rather have one more fully capable combat unit. However I could see it being great for certain situations, and bring a much more diverse set of tactics to the fore if a person built up an army with its possibilities in mind.

    I also think that because it would be perfectly optional to use or not to use, that there's no real downside to implementing it (at least from a players perspective, how it might affect the AI I couldn't remark on).

    The idea of the cost of the ability being offset by the use of a unit slot is pure genius. I would even go so far as to say the idea could be broadened if yourself or other modders felt the desire. Imagine a Ammo Train unit, that grants bonus Ammunition and Shots Per Minute bonuses. Or a Quartermaster unit, that would grant a Armour/Weapon upgrades to a stack, even if the faction couldn't produce them naturally (with crazy recruitment/upkeep costs to match). Since all of them would only have any effect at all if the player decided to utilize them, and no effect if they didn't, I think it would be game changing for some.

    Sorry for the long post
    Est Sularus Oth Mithas (for Raistlin if he reads this)
    Ascer

  2. #2

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    I have to say that the reduced deployment zone size has actually given a purpose to ambush units again.

    Currently, the deployment zones are so large, you can almost never effectively deploy ambush units to the flanks or rear of an enemy army.

  3. #3
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    I have to say that the reduced deployment zone size has actually given a purpose to ambush units again.

    Currently, the deployment zones are so large, you can almost never effectively deploy ambush units to the flanks or rear of an enemy army.
    You need to paint the picture for me with this one. Smaller deployment zones would mean less space to deploy your troops, meaning the enemy will have an easier task of discovering your ambush units?

    I have a hard time understanding how less space results in more and more succesfull ambush attacks?

    I would think that having a larger but closer deployment zone, so your units hiding at the flanks dont have to wait/run for ages before being able to strike the enemy from behind.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashHeart07 View Post
    You need to paint the picture for me with this one. Smaller deployment zones would mean less space to deploy your troops, meaning the enemy will have an easier task of discovering your ambush units?

    I have a hard time understanding how less space results in more and more succesfull ambush attacks?
    With both small deployment boxes placed in the center of map, you have plenty of space behind the enemy lines to hide your guerilla units.

  5. #5
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Furgon View Post
    With both small deployment boxes placed in the center of map, you have plenty of space behind the enemy lines to hide your guerilla units.
    Ofc. Now I see it. Forgot about their ability to deploy outside the ordinary deployment zone.
    But Im kindda disappointed in the answer. I said "paint". So far I havent seen anything done in paint.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Hm, how about this one?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  7. #7
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Im satisfied. Like how you can almost feel the intensity of the battle in that picture. Pro paint skillZ


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    No pictures for you, I can't even draw stick figures properly. That's how bad of an artist I am.


    I've noticed that the slow movement speed is a huge issue when you have reinforcing armies. It can take upwards of 20 minutes for a reinforcing heavy infantry to join the battle.

    If it is the ai reinforcing you and you don't care much, that's not a big deal. But when playing cooperative multiplayer, that can really be annoying to the reinforcing player.

    Or even reinforcing your own armies.

    Is there any way a reinforcing army could have a temporary movement speed boost? I highly doubt there is any trigger regarding reinforcing armies, but you never know.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    I am excited by these ideas. Will have a crack at the packs soon and provide my feedback. Great to see that you are still thinking about good improvements to the battle system.

  10. #10
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Concerning reinforcement time, why don´t you see it as further challenge to avoid any confrontation until you´re able to merge your forces? Or you might even have to sacrifice some men to hold off the enemies^^
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  11. #11

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    There is a problem on the campaign map trying to work out if these new recruits can run or not due to heavy and medium infantry sharing the same diamond icon. I'm assuming anything with 20 armour or more is classed as heavy and can't run? It'd be nice if the descriptions could be amended somehow to make it obvious but it would take forever.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    Concerning reinforcement time, why don´t you see it as further challenge to avoid any confrontation until you´re able to merge your forces? Or you might even have to sacrifice some men to hold off the enemies^^
    Because it is never a question of needing to be able to hold or requiring to merge your forces. At least in my cases. It isn't any challenge at all, it's just tedious to the player with the reinforcing army.

    Do you really want to be the second player trying for 25 real minutes to get your troops to the battle only for it to be finished before you get there?

  13. #13
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Probably close to 90% of melee infantry can't run, only melee units that can run are either unarmoured or have stuff like 5-10 armour. Ranged infnatry can have more armour and still be able to run, but that is for obvious gameplay reasons (plus they get penalties vs cav anyway). I can add unit speed value to be shown in the UI if it will fit, that way you will know unit speed already from campaign map.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Probably close to 90% of melee infantry can't run, only melee units that can run are either unarmoured or have stuff like 5-10 armour. Ranged infnatry can have more armour and still be able to run, but that is for obvious gameplay reasons (plus they get penalties vs cav anyway). I can add unit speed value to be shown in the UI if it will fit, that way you will know unit speed already from campaign map.
    That would be soooo great KAM!

    Keep up the good work


  15. #15

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    That would work well! Great idea.

  16. #16
    DaveMurray's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    i look forward for pack 4 At least someone seeing how wrong is pikes working at the plain game or in other mods...
    The pikes (sarissa), is a deadly weapon (and near invicible) in the hands of great commanders, if their flanks and rear is secured. In Alexander times, pikes (i prefer sarissa is the right word [historically and translated too]...) is not was so much vulnerable and was a bit flexible because ofcourse of the strategical skills of Alexander and because the depth of the formation it was not so heavy as successors phalanxes was! The forward momentum even so for successors armies of sarissa/pikes was... just great and deadly!

    Either in the Alexander times or Successors, the sarissa/pikes phalanxes it was not easy for short spearmens or swordsmens (legions for example) to be close when a pike/sarissa formation is at the front. It just was imposible Instead they go at the flanks or rear... So its a bit strange when you see in all mods and plain game anyone unit come close to pikemens with so much easy (even toxotai with skirmish off!!!), ignoring the sarissa and the great momentum of the depth of the formation/phalanx... It is so unrealistic thing that, and im looking forward that resolved with that great work here (the melee and defence stats also is a bit strange for pikemens of successor kingdoms/late spartans/acheneans/aetolians but anyway, that is another discussion)

    Lets make the sarissa/pike work with the way should work!

  17. #17
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    The thing is that we do not really know how it actually worked...
    Not a single one of us took part in ancient battles, sadly...

    Since greek historians usually wrote as if everyone knew how and how well troop types faught on the battlefied, we usually only get to know the end results of their actions.

    Then there´s also the problems of the engine, KAM posted a video to explain why he did what he did with pikes.
    Last edited by Maetharin; May 04, 2016 at 09:24 AM.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  18. #18
    DaveMurray's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    The thing is that we do not really know how it actually worked...
    Not a single one of us took part in ancient battles, sadly...
    Since greek historians usually wrote as if everyone knew how and how well troop types faught on the battlefied, we usually only get to know the end results of their actions.
    Of course no one from us was not there :p But i disagree with you

    Yes, we know pretty much
    about tactics, weaponry, clothes, shields, organization, etc, and great details in the formations, fighting style etc from the ancient greek, romans and varius other historians with many nationalities... We know even about age of bronze, we also found physical evidences (weaponry).

    All of these great details and texts saved from the arrow of time what was? All of them (historians) was making just praises in how much their fellow countrymen fight someone else? (that called propaganda and not history) i don't think so... With that logic, even our recent history, can be written by anyone as he likes, like the historians of our school books today in many countries... (a bit political comment sorry). For me that logic not making any sense I dont think all the history written is just "propaganda" :p

    When you have a 6,2 - 6,5 meter long sarissa and with easy anyone short spearmen or swordsmen in every mod out there (ok not all of them :p) come to close at the "foot companions" ---> phalangites/tai, ignoring the much bigger sarissa and the distance between and the push forward, in your mind you say: wow, something wrong and fantasy i'm seeing right now :p If you have your flanks and rear secured with swordsmens/spearmens and missiles and in the same time the phalangites pushing forward, just im wondering how you can stop that beast... (cavalry is occupied maneuvering and crushing from the rear/flanks) (remember the words/feeling of Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus when saw the macedonian phalanx...)

  19. #19

    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Yes, but he earned the cognomen macedonicus because he beat down Macedonian forces. I think he felt just fine about facing it.

  20. #20
    DaveMurray's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    Yes, but he earned the cognomen macedonicus because he beat down Macedonian forces. I think he felt just fine about facing it.
    Of course he beat/crushed them badly that why get the "macedonicus" Plutarch and Polyvius anyway, propagandists historians ( :p ) said something else about Aemilius Paullus :p ----> https://books.google.gr/books?id=vsg...halanx&f=false

    Perseus And Philip V was not great military commanders and they pay badly their mistakes in their tactics in the battlefield They was not Alexander, not Pyrrhus, not even great roman commanders. They lost not because their armies was not strong, and the phalanx sarissa it was just bad, they lost because they was inexperienced commanders and by giving wrong orders If for example, just a example (and is extreme example) romans facing Alexander in battle, oh god, they will be in big trouble :p. Anyway, at "Pydna" the heavy cavalry (Hetairoi) Superior by a lot from Roman and other Italic cavalry when the time was right to charge and crush the routed romans at the hills, they dont do nothing at all..., and Perseus, inexperienced and bad commander, ordered full charge and attack, with phalangites chasing the routed romans in the hills :p What a mistake :p Phalangites charge at hills Phalangites with their big sarissa chasing and lost their phalanx cohesion. They lost the battle not because they was not powerfull, they lost the battle by bad orders, not hetairoi participation at all, and because romans and their general was the epitome of clever tactics in commanding their army. Phalangites cannot fight from close distant, they was not trained in that kind of battle, and their equipment was not anything close in contrast of a legionnaire with his gladius sword, and of course his training in this kind of battle

    And by closing my comments, the pack 4, will give us a nice portion of reality to our beloved game Sarissa/Pike must work as should ---> keeping anyone at distance with great forward "firepower" KAM he can use and his new idea with the Pack 4 by the way, fatigue is a big paragon in the effectiveness

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