Experimental Pack Reborn - patch 09.04.2016

[Affe]

I think Celtic Garrisoned Swordsmen are still able to run, even though they are classified as heavy infantry.

Speaking about unit classification, I don't get some of it. For example, why do Greek Swordsmen (Choppers?) with 10 armour count as very heavy infantry, while Phrygian Axemen with the similar stats and 30 armour are classified as medium infantry?

[KAM 2150]

Unit classes are not the same as weight classes, they are considered only for AI unit placement. I haven't worked on them.

[Affe]

Alright, thanks!

Overall I'm a big fan of the packs, 1 and 3 compliment each other very well and I think those definitely should be used together.

Sadly the AI still commits all it's units at once, but I feel like it spreads them out more equally and doesn't blob the center as much anymore.
It definitely makes better attempts at flanking and actually caught me unaware a few times and got some nice rear charges into my units.

[KAM 2150]

AI will always be AI, but maybe at some point I will again find out some magic values like with 1.1 where AI got some improvements because I randomly tested stats that made AI a bit more smart.

[Affe]

That's is true, there is only so much you can do with tweaking stats..

But thank you nonetheless! Even with all those obstacles you guys managed to turn Rome II into the TW game I always wanted, and you even are still improving it.
On the other hand, I will probably never be able to enjoy a vanilla TW game ever again..

[KAM 2150]

Ok guys, some news.

Firstly, I still won't mod for at least next two weeks so do not expect anything new but....


I had some fresh ideas today and I would like to hear your thoughts about it.

Idea 1.
Increased "civilized" factions basic walking speed to be higher then mob/barbarian walking speed so they will move faster on average, while barb nations have mostly more light units in their rosters so they will have more units that can run (while their heavies will be both slower then "civilized" infantry and won't be able to run). So for example, Roman legionares due to superior marching abilities and having no problem with keeping formation during said march will walk faster then barbarian levy spearmen, on the other hand Naked Fanatics (heavy infantry, no armour) will march at slower pace then legionares, but will have ability to run due to light equipment. Average medium and heavy barb infantry will walk slower then Roman legionares and won't be able to run. This might improve variety of gameplay, so "civilized" nations will have easier time with marching on the field, but won't be able to do fast attacks due to lack of running and "barbarian" infantry will have special high grade units (like Naked Fanatics) that are able to run but on average their standard infantry will move slower.

Idea 2.
Introduce courier units. Now this rather fresh approach to the subject. I could add certain abilities to units to make them move faster like rapid advance or give some special abilites to general, but the problem would be that AI would not use it or would not know how to use it properly and it would just work on the benefit of the player even more (since AI is also affected by slower movement). Those units would work like Baggage Train from supply system so they would be few in numbers and not so flashy in combat, but they will be able to buff unit speed significantly at a price of unit slot. In my opinion that is a fair trade off, since AI units will not be able to use it, but the player will have to sacrifice unit slot for a unit that simply buffs others. I think that if their size will be around 10 guys on max unit settings will be just right, they will make your units as fast as in regular DeI (placeholder idea for now), but they will have limited range of buffing, while they would have to be very close to combat zone, hence they could be easily killed of by enemy ranged units who often target units in second rank. If you will use them carefully, they will provide a great advantage, but if they will get killed early on, then you not only lost a buff but also valuable unit slot that could have been used by typical combat unit.


What are your thoughts guys?

[godwrote]

Idea 2 is in my eyes nonsense.

Idea 1 is intresting but dont fit the point. The game has already a function that shows all those points and this is stamina/endurance. I mean that point how fast a unit gets exhausted in a longer melee. Some Units have a lot Stamina for example elite units. And as far as i know cheap melee units like levies mostly have nearly no stamina. So this already is in the game. And stamina already effects the unit movement speed as far as i know.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

I'm not a fan of idea two either.

I'll have to think more about idea one.

[Furgon]

Well, if you want to seriously pursue #1 you probably need to take a more complex and systematic approach with rebalancing faction rosters and such. Which looks like too much hassle for you
#2 sounds really off. If one wanted to move fast, why would he even use your speed mod? The whole idea behind it was to limit player, not to give advantage.

[hoho96]

I agree with what's said; #1 is awesome and quite realistic actually since especially Roman soldiers were trained to march with a house worth of baggage on their backs, this allowed great and superior endurance in battles (when they're not carrying this "house"). So yeah, faster marching but no running.

Now I don't know why anyone who would be using slower speeds mod, want to have a unit that is practically worthless just to make the units faster. Aside from being completely nonsense, once your army engage in battles, this extra unit will be totally useless. if anything, you already have your flanking force on the flanks ready to, well flank. Your cav can run all they want, and your main line is engaging frontally. I honestly don't see how or why such a "buff" unit would worth bringing to your army :/

[Furgon]

you already have your flanking force on the flanks ready to, well flank. Your cav can run all they want, and your main line is engaging frontally.

Yeah it's true most of the time, but only if you have everything under control and deployed thoughtfully, as terrain can sometimes give you a real butthurt.
I had one battle, where I chose to reposition on a distant hill behind me in the face of overwhelming odds. And it took me a couple of units to cover this retreat. KAM made me hate those light hoplites with all my heart They kept hanging on my back like some rabid dogs.

[Maetharin]

I love the idea of Nr.1, but I think in this case barbarian charge distance needs to go up, at least double the distance the romans have.

[charlieh]

I agree. Number 1 sounds good Kam. Number 2 sounds interesting, but, personally, I wouldn't go for it.

[KAM 2150]

Replying to every post would take too much time so long story short, idea no 2 has brought the most controversy Well, the thing is that unit would take up a unit slot and be otherwise useless in combat, but would have abilities to buff temporarly speed of nearby 2-3 units for limited amount of time. AI would not use it, but AI would have numerical advantage if player would sacrifice unit slots for 1-2 squads of these guys. Of course giving them constant buff for all army would be too much, that is why they would only be able to buff units speed once in few minutes and only for few units nearby. Luckly, since nobody wants it, then I feel a relief, because I will not have to work on it xD

Idea number 1 would in theory take me a lot of time to add, but instead of overhauling all nations I could do the thing I did with hoplites so I would just add faster marching entries for "civilized" units of Romans and Greeks, while majority of units would use old ones. The charge distance for barbarians would be increased Maetharin, I had that idea too, forgot to write it down.


Overal deal with those two ideas is that due to limited time of testing (I haven't even tested PoR until last week) I don't know which direction speed overhaul should take, I know it has to be improved, but I simply don't know which approach should I take.

[Furgon]

Pikes! Don't forget the pikes!

[TheRazaman]

Pikes! Don't forget the pikes!

I think the pike riddle was solved, no? Changing pike unit id's to hoplite fixes the animations; thus pikemen hold units at sarissa range instead of allowing them to pass into sword range. The only side effect being that the pike unit flag was now the same as hoplite unit flag (all other stats are unchanged).

[KAM 2150]

Yes, that one ; P But pike won't come until late June/early July.

[KAM 2150]

Not it does not. That is fix for every non pike unit to behave better, so it is actually giving units like hoplites a pike id, it does nothing for pikes. Holding units at sarrisa range is super simple thing that requires changing single number, but it also produces other side effects. Watch my pike rant video, where I explained how pikes work on warscape.

Actual solution is rebalancing every single armour value so that max armour value is around 25. This of course requires rebalancing entire combat.

[Furgon]

every non pike unit to behave better

By the way, can you explain what happened to the charge? Frontal assault seems to always disrupt formation and guarantees 5-15 casualties for attacker. I even get some automatic hits when infantry-charging from the back. Resembles cav charges into spears. Most of the time its safer to just walk into the fight.

[KAM 2150]

There always was damage for charging infantry, it is sinply more visible when you attack units eoth expert charge defence. And to add to that, higher grade units will obviously defend well vs inferior units. Although I haven't seen more then 5 guys dead for attacker if their target was stationary, in mutual charge casualties will always be higher.