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Thread: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

  1. #21

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    The EB team have always stated that historical accuracy is their primary concern. Overhand spear units aren't featured in the mod just because it looks cool.
    It is just that. The team is accurate. A lot of the art finds show overhand... because it looked cool 2000 years ago as well, and that sold art. But art is art, not reality, and woe to the conscript who tries to fight nowadays based on action movies and Battlefield.
    The team cant bring an ancient soldier back and ask him how he and his buddies fought... unfortunately.
    Like others have said the reason overhand grip feels awkward and unwieldy to you is because you haven't been trained to use a spear that way. It's not just about physical strength and athleticism, I work in construction and swing a 28 oz. hammer all day but that doesn't mean I can pitch a fast ball. A professional football player would feel awkward trying to shoot a bow for the first time.
    I havent been trained to use underhand neither, nobody told me how to hold a spear. It is just a natural preference. I did martial arts for 10 years, and if something feels awkward or difficult, you dont do it because it is a waste of your energy and time and you will get your butt kicked.
    Historical research requires a lot critical thinking, it is not just mindless memorization of facts and dates.
    Some fail miserably at that. Those were the people I mentioned, and those are usually the loudest ones.

    None of us have ever been in a real ancient field battle. We can't trust common sense, because we have no experience to base our common sense upon.
    Please. If you knew you had to fight tomorrow, youd be all brains trying to think what to do.

    1. Dont tire yourself needlessly.
    2. Stay in formation.
    3. Block or evade sharp and heavy objects directed towards you.
    4. Fight back.
    5. Find the easiest way to follow 1-4.

    See, that is common sense.
    Last edited by Rad; February 20, 2016 at 09:38 AM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    I've held poles about as long and as heavy as a hoplite spear.
    You held poles. My grandma has a very long broom, is she a hoplite? A pole is not the same thing as a spear, because a spear has a lot of weight on the front end (the spear head) which, through force gravity, drags it down, making it hard to keep balanced. A counterweight and proper tapering help, but never solve the issue with overhand.

    So it's certainly possible to use a spear overhand
    It is.
    It is, it is, it is. I never said it wasnt. Stop trying to make me look like I would never use such a grip. What I said was that I am not a fan of it and I prefer underarm because of the reasons I stated.
    This is not just you. Most people have a tendency classify into groups, excluding any possibilty of an in between... right and wrong, left and right, Schwarzenegger or Stallone, underarm or overarm... come on folks, stahp.
    Last edited by Rad; February 20, 2016 at 09:43 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    This is just turning into another endless overhand/underhand argument and i dont think it will achieve anything.

    I would like to test that idea of having an underhand primary and overhand secondary spear weapon and see how it looks but i dont know how easy that is to mod. Do you just add some lines in the unit file or does it involve animation modding too?

  4. #24

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    I know it is, but I cannot stop myself from replying because I am defending a point I believe in.

    I would like to test it too, and I am going to tinker around the unit files.

    Edit: Tried it, not happy with the results. A few units do fight with their secondary weapon, while most fight with the primary, but I am not satisfied with the ratio. Also, they seem to switch weapons just before charging. I hate when units stop before they charge.
    The nice thing I noticed is that Camillian Triarii do have a hidden secondary weapon model. They make cool looking swordsmen.

    I remember Rome 1 also being buggy when it came to having two melee weapons, but it was more manageable and fluent. The fighting ranks would have weapon A, while the rear ranks would have weapon B, if memory serves. That would have made my idea possible.

    Maybe someone else will be able to make it work.
    Last edited by Rad; February 20, 2016 at 12:00 PM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    "Common sense" from the untrained is a bollocks argument. To use an example from a much later time period, if you told someone who knew nothing about late Medieval swordsmanship that holding a Zweihander by the blade and bashing your enemy over the head with the Pommel end was a legitimate maneuver particularly in duels, they'd laugh at you, because their "common sense" says you hold a sword by the handle. Yet the "murder-blow" repeatedly comes up in period duelist manuals. The only difference here is that we don't have any surviving treatise on overhand spear usage from the Hellenistic period. All we have left is the art. And the argument that "oh, they had Hoplites using their Spears wrong in pottery on purpose" is also bollocks, Hoplites were usually Citizen soldiers, they wouldn't commission art that showed them using their weapon in a way that was totally wrong over and over again. And dismissing such evidence as "artistic licence" with no other qualifiers then "it doesn't look right to me" is bad research in general.

    And there are concrete advantages to an overhand grip. You're adding the Spear's weight to your strike instead of fighting against it. You can put your own weight behind the strike without extending your entire body past your shield, with an underhand grip anything other then a weak jab exposes much of your body. An overhand grip lets you strike over your enemies shield at his face and shoulders. A spear held underhand becomes totally useless in a clash of two shieldwalls, an overhand grip still allows some offense.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Murder blow and half swording is common sense at its finest if you have a sword and you are fighting a fully armored opponent, because swords arent meant to go through armor and those two methods are workarounds. Half swording aims a strong thrust at the armor gaps, the murder strike turns the sword into a mace. Also, they can be used in tight quarters when the reach of your sword becomes a problem.

    If you read through the previous page, which you didnt, youd notice that I said that I find and overhand grip in a Greek phalanx more plausible, because that formation doesnt primarily rely on spear fencing.

    Ive already mentioned that overhand is a powerful attack, youre just trying to bash me with my own words.

    How does an undearm jab expose you? Lets say youre wielding a center grip thureos or a scutum. You can extend your shield arm as much as your spear arm. That way, your spear hand is always protected by the shield. When using a shield in melee, keep it as far from your body as possible, especially when you strike - to cover your weapon hand.

    Edit: Could someone please move these underarm-overarm posts into a separate thread? Weve soiled the suggestion thread long enough.
    Last edited by Rad; February 21, 2016 at 05:53 AM.

  7. #27

    Default [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Moving all those posts cluttering up the fan suggestions thread.

  8. #28

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    there are numerus depictions of hoplites fighting with overhand style











    there are also depictions of hoplites fighting underarm,it seems that they are out of formation chasing defeated foes like in the first or dueling.






    Last edited by excubitor; February 21, 2016 at 09:50 AM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage



    Who are these guys? Hoplites. Where are they? In formation. How do they hold their weapons? Undearm.

  10. #30

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    they are marching not fighting.

  11. #31

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    It seems to me that the added fatigue of holding a spear overhand should be taken into consideration. You simply waste more energy holding the damn thing up, if you're doing that for an hour or two, than if you hold it underarm at your side.

  12. #32
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Came across this on the teams internal forum, here's a post by a member the team completely agreed with.

    Keep in mind they never necessarily expected these to be posted on a forum for the public to read. So while they were presenting some evidence (among themselves as trusted peers) they no doubt never expected this to be presented to the public.


    When it comes to spears, there are a lot of factors to consider. We see both in art, of course, but according to an article by Connolly, the ratio of overhand:underhand is something like 7:3. And certainly there are advantages to both. But if we can only use one animation for your standard spear, then the overhand is undoubtedly better.
    http://imgur.com/fSJbwSD


    1. Overhand can be used in a tight formation. Here is a fantastic vase painting which highlights what can go wrong with an underhanded grip. But the overhand allows the back of the spear to go over the head of the row behind you without injuring anyone.
    http://imgur.com/GbtQUMg


    2. There are – I think – two articles that use force plates to measure the energy behind the overhand, underhand, and underhand/high-elbow. The overhand is the fastest and most powerful with the best economy of movement of the arm. The high-elbow hold being a distant third in power and speed. The high-elbow is also a very uncomfortable grip to maintain. I have an image capture of the Connolly chart, but the article itself is expensive so I'm going off what I found at the RAT fora.


    3. Shields are very big. The aspis is actually huge and you don't get a good idea of its size until you see one in real life. The same goes for a thureos. Using a spear overhand means you can cover yourself with your shield and strike over it, to the sides, or even down at someone's feet by simply dropping your arm. To use an underhanded grip and to get a good extension of your arm, you have to displace your shield to the left or swing it open (as depicted in art), which means you expose at least your shoulder if not most of your body when you attack.


    4. I own the parts for a spear. The pole alone is 7 feet and when I get it tapered I'll be able to attach the head piece and butt piece. It will be weighted so that the balance of the spear is a little back from the center, but not by much. Weapons need to be an optimal weight to be used well: for example most swords don't weigh more than 1 kg and usually less. You can shift the center of balance by increasing the weight of the butt spike, but you get a diminishing return with increased weight of the whole weapon. Balance is exceedingly important for a good weapon and its effective use. Without it, you spend more energy fighting the weapon than you do the opponent.


    5. Using a spear underhand and holding it further back doesn't really help. You lose that point of balance. It becomes very easy for an opponent to just move your spear out of line. Recovering is very difficult. Think leverage and points of control. You have more reach, but you're not effective with it.


    6. I really, really hate Lindybeige.


    7. Overhand never really went away. The Bayeux tapestry shows the grip being used well beyond our time frame.


    8. Your opponent probably also has a shield, which means a lot of him is covered. Unless you can get to his side, the only vulnerable parts are his face and behind the shield. You need to be able to reach over his shield to strike at the face or neck with your spear, which you simply cannot do effectively with an underhand grip.


    Because of the above, I would argue that even levy troops with minimal training would tend toward using an overhand grip. Imagine the first day of your incredibly short training: Keep your shield up and in front of you and strike with your spear above the shield. Don't move the shield away from you or your dead.


    Cavalry is a different matter, but if a cavalryman is using a normal length spear of about 7 to 8 feet, he would probably use an overhand grip.


    1. Balance is still an issue. Because of this, the spear is unlikely to extend much beyond the horse being ridden. These aren't going to be shock cavalry. The spear is a primary weapon and you run into the same issues as infantry. If your opponent has a shield, you want to reach over it regardless of whether they are mounted or on foot. A downward strikes against infantry would be particularly effective in this case and easy to do. An underhand would mean contorting your arm. Also, the average horse of the day wasn't very many hands high, so you wouldn't be riding that much above the shield of an infantryman.


    2. The development of the kontos and xyston change things by allowing a couched grip so that a charge could be made. But those aren't really close-in weapons to be used after a charge. So totally different game here despite their similarity.


    So to conclude, our evidence is limited pictorially, but leans toward overhand. Based on the argument I made above, when it comes to choosing between one or the other I would stick with an overhand grip.

    This is some input from a team member who was heavily into reenacting.
    My personal experience with spears is from being at attacker on foot. I am an impatient fighter to some degree, and hate 'the dance' as you circle each other for a long time.


    Overhand, for me, is the way to go when the spear is around your height or a bit more (I'm 6'0"). With a thureos type shield, overhand allows a range of thrusts that can be lightning fast. I think that the forearm and wrist is the most important part of overhand spear use, although the pectoral, shoulder, and upper arm of your spear arm should not be lacking either. You can snap the spear back for a feint or forward for a jab lightning fast, lower or raise it and just do everything with much more accuracy and speed and, after while, it's almost like an extension of your arm and the spear point naturally goes where your eyes are looking at without effort.


    New players fall for the feints or lunges, and they instinctively raise the shield, sometimes high enough to block their eyes, and lean back away from the thrust. In the meantime you can be moving opposite their shield side and try to strike.


    Experienced players generally will bend their knees to add more body coverage behind their shield, but they seldom let the shield bock their eyes. They don't lean back much, so as your body moves forward following your spear thrust they time their move towards you so get in a shot before you can move your arm back and ready another strike, if y'all can picture that.


    Still, the sword is what real men use and I would swap out any spear to have a sword as my attack weapon
    Although we may have mixed it to a small extent or depending on the situation if we could have.
    Small note by the way...underhand/overhand have a common misconception apparently it means the hand is 'over' the spear for overhand (anotherwords underhand as most people think of it = overhand), while underhand means the hand is under the spear. I forget that myself and don't really understand it either but apparently that's how it is.
    Last edited by z3n; February 21, 2016 at 02:28 PM. Reason: added imgur links, instead of internal forum ones
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  13. #33

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    It seems to me that the added fatigue of holding a spear overhand should be taken into consideration. You simply waste more energy holding the damn thing up, if you're doing that for an hour or two, than if you hold it underarm at your side.
    hoplite battles didnt last that long,many times the two forces didnt even make contact,the less trained/disciplined/low morale plalanx just melted away.

  14. #34
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Fans suggestion thread for future releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    The main reason overhand is featured more in this mod is because it looks cool, manly, heroic etc. I like how it looks, for goodness sake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    It is just that. The team is accurate. A lot of the art finds show overhand... because it looked cool 2000 years ago as well, and that sold art. But art is art, not reality, and woe to the conscript who tries to fight nowadays based on action movies and Battlefield.
    Most depictions of spear users depict overhand, especially if in formation.

    Do you know why I am absolutely sure it is not just artistic licence?

    Because it appears everywhere, regardless of area or period.

    I think these fellows had more experience on the subject than you;

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    ...as did these fellows in a completely different area from a completely different period;

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    So, you know, talk to the point;

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    ...cause the grip ain't listenin.
    Last edited by +Marius+; February 21, 2016 at 09:24 PM.

  15. #35

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Matt Easton has some points on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p93xUp9GrQ

    As has been said above: In formation, overhand makes more sense. Also. it is tiresome to do activities that you're not used to, but training will make you fit to the task. In basic training, we did a lot of callisthenics with our 9 lb G-3 rifles to make our arms and shoulders used to the weight.
    Some years later I tried my hands as a fisherman. The first weeks, I went to bed and got up in the morning with hands that were all knotted up like claws. Then I got used to the 16-30 hour work days, and it went much smoother, lifting 120 lb cases of fish like it was nothing.
    As Matt has said elsewhere: If you train for a while it gets much easier. And you can rest the spear on your shoulder if it gets heavy.
    Btw. which is heavier, the shield or the spear? No matter how you hold your spear you have to hold up that shield when you're in formation. I think that will wear you out more than holding the spear in overarm.

  16. #36

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    IŽm no expert but: You have to think how spears work in tandem with a shield, and how interlocking round shields provide a rest for the overhand position, for the first and second rows at least. Think about how you hold a pool queue. Thats probbaly how Hoplites did it, and why its so important to keep your shield in place.

    The overhand grip gives the ability to stab downwards, forwards neck level (when rested on the shoulder) but always over the shield into the neck/face/chest. The problem is the tail of the spear, if youŽre not careful youŽll hit your friends to the sides and behind you with it. Interestingly you can also easily stab to the left from this position, but not to the right, which probably explains why formations rotated to the right. Stabbing right youŽll find your neck in the way of the tail and it feels weaker (stabbing inwards vs stabbing outwards)

    Also the design of helmets probably evolved to deflect spear stabs coming from above making clubs, axes and swords more useful since they aim to crush the helmet into your skull, break collarbones, dislocate shoulders etc

    But then you also need to look at shield designs, if you notice, a round shield doesnt allow you to stab into the stomach (mid level thrust) because it gets in the way (especially in a shield wall) A rectangular shield does.

    I think IŽve seen some shield designs that provide a buttress for underhand spear usage, even when interlocked with other shields. They look like an 8. IŽd suppose they relied on the helmets and shoulder/chest armor to deflect overhand blows while they pool queued stomachs and groins from mid level.

    A very haphazard comment but maybe it helps

  17. #37

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Nightsh4de, I believe you're thinking of the Boetian shield with the cutouts that Lindybeige mentions above. I was browsing this issue on Historum and someone posted that video. It was countered that we've never found evidence beyond art of that shield, so to say "well the art is wrong," and then to talk about something in art is a bit of a double-standard.

    The debate over the hoplite is overhand vs. "high underhand" as far as I can tell. "High underhand" has its own issues. One, it would have been hard to transition into from a lower underhand grip to a high grip when wearing a rigid curaiss, and the shield would be in the way if done in formation. Two, it leaves the armpit exposed. Another one is that tests have indicated a power disparity of 5 to 1 in favor of the overhand grip: http://www.argospress.com/jbt/articl...8-abstract.pdf

    Finally, Greeks had experience with throwing javelins, using many of the same muscles. In the same way that American boys played baseball and threw a ball, throwing a javelin was a common activity, even if men of means didn't use them in war.

    EDIT: Pardon me, not the best link for that particular study.
    Last edited by Slaytaninc; February 22, 2016 at 04:28 PM.
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  18. #38

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Men of means, if they were of a more traditional bent, would still use javelins to hunt.

  19. #39

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    It was countered that we've never found evidence beyond art of that shield, so to say "well the art is wrong," and then to talk about something in art is a bit of a double-standard.
    IŽm just saying that for an underhand grip, that shield design could be more useful, whether that design is real or not I donŽt know.

    But leaving specific shield designs to one side, the main issue with the under grip, is how do you nullify a blow coming from above when you have your spear held at stomach level? you must rely on armor, hence the comment on improved helmets etc.

    Honestly IŽd be very nervous about locking my only free arm to my side, trusting my armor, just to get the chance for a thrust at the abdomen.

    Even if you could guarantee my helmet and shoulder armour would hold perfectly, I find it hard to believe that a spear thrust to the abdomen would pierce a wall of shields plus armor. The only situation that might work is when charging, bracing the spear against the armpit, but after that, what else? I donŽt think stabbing around blindly while youŽre turtled up in your shield guarantees a kill as well as being able to look over the wall and stab around freely.

    Just like you, overhand makes sense to me more, but who knows what fighting philosophy or technique may have been used or tried in the past. One on one, underhand may have worked because you have space to stab 180 degrees (or more!) around the right of the shield, but in a formation, youŽd be hitting everyone around you with your stick if you tried that.

    Depends on spacing, length of the spear, what the oponent is using, what your shield is supposed to do for you etc. But definitely for a hoplon shield, overhand in a formation is much more convincing

  20. #40

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Actually it may be both! Just try the following:

    Take a shield (or a pillow in my case) and a spear (my broom) and take a side stance, braced against the shield. Now hold the spear underhand, your fist hip level.

    The spear is across your abdomen more or less right? Ok, now without moving your elbow or shoulder, lift your fist until the spear lies pretty much across your cheek. Rest the spear head on your shieldŽs edge (just like you were playing pool)

    Underhand suddenly becomes overhand

    Not true overhand, its more limited in range of motion but you can still stab downwards over the shield

    It seems I may have misjudged, but not completely. This manouvre is not possible with interlocking round shields, only with a rectangular one and a slight space between spearmen. Actually the "wings" of the round shield are not useful if you space out a bit becuse there is dead space behind them, so you can eliminate them (and make a rectangle) making a small space through which you could move the spear around from under had to overhand completely freely

    Cool to think about anyhow

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