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Thread: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

  1. #81

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    This is the dumbest debate in the internet, premised on the fact that over/underhand are mutually exclusive for characters in a video game, so you have to pick just one. In combat you use the grip that is best suited to the specific circumstances. Untrained levy spearmen no doubt held their spear overhand sometimes, and elite spearmen could have held their spear underhand sometimes.

  2. #82

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    Great nose guard brah;

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The nose guard is much lower than where you put it, it is at the least in line with the rim of the helmet, possibly lower. But, you got to doodle on Paint, and that made you feel like an artist...

  3. #83

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    I reset my password so I could actually post in this thread, having not posted on this forum since... forever. I never quite understood either why this particular topic has come up over the years in Europa Barbarorum. I've seen in Google search the countless and exhausting fights on this.

    Frankly, as an outsider looking at the evidence, and the difficulty or implausibility in reversing your underhand to overhand in pitched battle, ranks locked, shield against shield, I just don't see how that'd work. For Gladius's or short swords so to speak I can see how that could work somewhat, it did somehow for the Roman's, but for weapons that are spear length, being able to strike over your combatants shield at their shoulder and arm down near to their feet instead of your overhand stance being possibly stuck between your shieldwall and the enemies. I side with the Pro-Underhand faction.

    +Marius+ google evidence portraying the underhand from several different sources, from several different centuries that are in some cases more than 4-5 centuries apart from each other... I just don't see how you can further progress the argument in lack of pictorial (word I never used before till I've seen y'all use it!) evidence.

    I'm trying not to be bias, but coming into this thread, Underhand wins. But I digress in my limited knowledge of melee fighting, that both stances have their circumstances that warrant their usage perhaps moreso than the other. If I was stranded in a duel, or both my formation and the enemies lost cohesion and everyone is out for themselves, I'd gladly prefer overhand to strike at their lower half of the body, from my imagination. Yet when I go to strike, I must maneuver my Greek/Medieval shield out the way, opening a large swath of myself to damage too.
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  4. #84

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Thick formation fighting; overhand

    - you cannot use the spear underhand when the shields overlap; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZVs97QKH-8&t=1m25s

    Looser formation fighting; both overhand and underhand

    Duels, skirmishes etc. = both;


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Mamlaz; December 09, 2018 at 05:43 AM.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Engine limitation: Soldiers can only have one skeleton that is independent of tight or loose formation, therefore there cannot be separate models based on tight or loose formation.

    I suppose that this could be simulated by giving hoplites a spear secondary weapon (underhand model) but that's upto the team...
    Last edited by OJ33DA; December 09, 2018 at 09:21 AM.
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  6. #86
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    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Quote Originally Posted by OJ33DA View Post
    Engine limitation: Soldiers can only have one skeleton that is independent of tight or loose formation.

    I suppose that this could be simulated by giving hoplites a spear secondary weapon (underhand model) but that's upto the team...
    Anyway, the engine is not suited to recreate exactly a battle and the fighting techniques of this period. Nobody cares about this overhand vs underhand debate excepted the contrarians. Therefore I don't think it is a good idea for the team to focalize on this. There is a consensus among scholars (true scholars not amateurs) for the overhand, it was chosen to represent it like this because the engine is centered about battle formations facing each others. This debate will never be healthy because people opposes logical statement against logical statement. Without a proper education in epistemology and ontology, people don't realize how much a logical statement can be dull.
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  7. #87

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    there's a professor from, i believe, NL, who posts on reddit under the handle Iphrikates. he has some fascinating writes up that you can find on /r/askhistorians in which he argues against actual interlocking shields in hoplite formations. has anyone read literature about that? it's pretty convincing stuff.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Quote Originally Posted by hlidskjalf View Post
    there's a professor from, i believe, NL, who posts on reddit under the handle Iphrikates. he has some fascinating writes up that you can find on /r/askhistorians in which he argues against actual interlocking shields in hoplite formations. has anyone read literature about that? it's pretty convincing stuff.
    This thread:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...their/e6lq62j/

    This profile:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...les/iphikrates

    Yes, he made very good point. It is always the problem with reenactment test, it is often logical statement poorly based on historical research.
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  9. #89

    Default Re: [The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

    Quote Originally Posted by Naga Prince View Post


    +Marius+ google evidence portraying the underhand from several different sources, from several different centuries that are in some cases more than 4-5 centuries apart from each other... I just don't see how you can further progress the argument in lack of pictorial (word I never used before till I've seen y'all use it!) evidence.

    I'm trying not to be bias, but coming into this thread, Underhand wins. But I digress in my limited knowledge of melee fighting, that both stances have their circumstances that warrant their usage perhaps moreso than the other. If I was stranded in a duel, or both my formation and the enemies lost cohesion and everyone is out for themselves, I'd gladly prefer overhand to strike at their lower half of the body, from my imagination. Yet when I go to strike, I must maneuver my Greek/Medieval shield out the way, opening a large swath of myself to damage too.
    Several sources, 4-5 centuries apart? Say no more. On a very lazy search, I found manuscript images from different areas ranging from the 9th to the late 14th century. But there's a catch...



    Thanks for necroing this dumb thread.

    p.s. if anyone is crazy enough to read the thread from the start, know that I live to learn
    Last edited by Rad; December 11, 2018 at 01:35 PM.

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