[The interminable debate] Overhand v underhand spear usage

[Rad]

It would be the other way around, they've already got much higher stats than any other levy spearman. So the early should drop, if we change anything.

I wasnt aiming at increasing the attack of the late levy. To me it doesnt matter if you lower the attack of the early levy, or increase the attack of the late levy, what matters is that late levies have a higher attack than the early ones.

P.S. I am not a fan of overhand grip. I have a spear at home, and using it overhand just doesnt feel right. The plus side is more power in the thrust , and that a second rank of soldiers can project their spears over the first rank.

The minus... you get less reach because you have to hold the spear more down the middle to balance it, it is more tiring for the arm, less control, speed and accuracy, your arm is more exposed, and because your attacks are more powerful and less controlled, your spear can get stuck, which is a bad thing to happen.

The cons far outweigh the pros.

[QuintusSertorius]

I wasnt aiming at increasing the attack of the late levy. To me it doesnt matter if you lower the attack of the early levy, or increase the attack of the late levy, what matters is that late levies have a higher attack than the early ones.

P.S. I am not a fan of overhand grip. I have a spear at home, and using it overhand just doesnt feel right. The plus side is more power in the thrust , and that a second rank of soldiers can project their spears over the first rank.

The minus... you get less reach because you have to hold the spear more down the middle to balance it, it is more tiring for the arm, less control, speed and accuracy, your arm is more exposed, and because your attacks are more powerful and less controlled, your spear can get stuck, which is a bad thing to happen.

The cons far outweigh the pros.

Does your spear have a counterweight? Do you have a big shield to fight behind?

[Rad]

Dont have one, but the issues would still be there if I did. First of all, it would still be tiring, even more so, with the added weight. Secondly, Ive seen counterweights, butt spikes and secondary blades and none of them are sufficiently heavy to truly fix the problem of balance which causes the user to grab the spear more down the middle, denying him reach - especially in the case of some freakishly long and heavy spearheads.

It would still be the same (low) speed of attack, with marginally more control. I think that the awkwardness of the grip is the killer of speed and accuracy. Also, jabbing at legs with overhand is difficult without exposing ones self.

I would like, however, to make a new shaft which would taper slightly towards the front and to add a counterweight... to use it underhand. That would be a dream. Lightning fast.

[Sint]

denying him reach - especially in the case of some freakishly long and heavy spearheads.

Than please use the underhand grip in a very thight formation with large shields and with 10 men behind you....You can't.The overhand grip allows you to attack while still being able to fight better in formation without being limited by your allies bodies and shields.And added reach is useless if you can't injure your enemy through the shieldwall ,the overhand grip also allows you to stab over the enemy shield.

And I actually tried it too I never found the underhand grip to be faster or more powerful not the grip to be akward.

[Rad]

Than please use the underhand grip in a very thight formation with large shields and with 10 men behind you....You can't.The overhand grip allows you to attack while still being able to fight better in formation without being limited by your allies bodies and shields.

Sure you can. You can grip a properly balanced spear quite near the butt end using underhand position. Your arm and the spear will not stick out towards your rear more than 0.5m when you pull your arm back for the thrust, and I would be angry if someone were to come closer than that and breathe down my neck while I am fighting for dear life. Everything indicates that you guys have in mind a Greek phalanx - a formation that primarily relies on heavy armor, unit cohesion, mass and shock, not on spear fencing.
In a phalanx, fencing comes after those things in line of importance. Slightly looser formations (not everyone is a hoplite, you know - in fact, by EB2 timeframe, hoplites are becoming outdated, even in Greece) fence more, and you dont just attack and get attacked by the person in front of you, but the people next to him, making speed, reach, accuracy and control much more important.

And added reach is useless if you can't injure your enemy through the shieldwall ,the overhand grip also allows you to stab over the enemy shield.

Yes it does allow that. It allows you to strike from a very predictable angle, with all the accuracy of a drunkard.

And I actually tried it too I never found the underhand grip to be faster or more powerful not the grip to be akward.

I cant understand it. I am surely twice as fast and much more comfortable with underhand. Ive never said that underhand was more powerful, please read my posts. I clearly said that overhand is more powerful, must I quote myself? And with overarm, my spear tends to stick in things like wood (the only thing I am allowed to jab lol) much more often.
You might just be arguing for arguings sake.

[Slaytaninc]

Throw a baseball overhand and then underhand. See which time it goes faster.

[romanius24]

You know, there are tribes in Indonesia where if you mention the overhand/underhand argument in somebody's house, the families go to war!

[Rad]

Throw a baseball overhand and then underhand. See which time it goes faster.

Please forgive me for the text bellow, but you are comparing apples and lightsabers, and I am slightly vexed by that.

1. A ball is not a spear. A ball fits in your hand completely. A spear has this thing called a shaft, which is a stick - that you hold, and a spear head (go figure) which is a pointy metal bit used to stab people. What it also does is to weigh down the spear on one end, forcing it to the ground. You need muscle endurance and a firm grip to keep it properly leveled, much more so in an overhand grip. All that expenditure slows your attack speed.
2. The spears I had in mind were for thrusting, not throwing. Javelins etc are not in this debate.
The natural throwing stance is overhand (which is actually a plus for overhand I failed to mention), the natural stance for thrusting is underhand.

[Rad]

You know, there are tribes in Indonesia where if you mention the overhand/underhand argument in somebody's house, the families go to war!

Right now, a war seems to be the best solution. Lets divide into two teams, one overhand, one underhand. The losers shut up... for good.

[Genghis Skahn]

As far as I know, the team must have a good reason for including so many overhand spear using units. Also, I find your own individual experiences with a spear somewhat dubious in determining the true difficulty/value in using the overhand vs underhand, and especially in regards to how overhand/underhand performs in large groups. As Quintus said, people who are less experienced with spear-use tend to use underhand rather than overhand because of the fact that it feels much more natural, due to their lack of training with a spear. You seem to embody this very fact in and of itself, as I'm guessing you're not a professional in spear-use(who really is in today's modern society?). None of us here have personally experienced the heat of an ancient battle and the actual difficulty in using spears in tight formation, so it's safe to say most of us aren't experts in the fields of melee rank and file warfare. Most of us here would likely find the overhand spear method awkward, when in actual fact it may or may not be much more efficient than an underhand grip. As for my own opinion, I believe that the overhand grip has been added to units for a good reason, and that it's a far more professional way to use average sized spears(longer spears/pikes require underhand grip due to their weight and unwieldy nature, no doubt), which is why units like the celtic levy spearmen use underhand grip whilst dugunthiz and Celtic spearmen use overhand. Besides overhand grips being better suited to striking over a shield, as someone already said, they also can more easily target an enemy's shoulder. As the shoulder is critical in both sword and spear use, as well as properly holding a shield, it is an excellent and ideal target in order to disable a fighting enemy; with an overhand grip you can more easily strike an enemy's shoulder and thus more easily disable him/her, before dealing a killing blow. I apologize if I seemed at all rude, as this is just my opinion.

[Rad]

The main reason overhand is featured more in this mod is because it looks cool, manly, heroic etc. I like how it looks, for goodness sake.
I still wouldnt use it. I dont have to train every day with a spear to notice the fundamental differences between the grips... although I do once a week (it is good for letting out steam). I am young, and I am fit, I do sports. You are not talking to a neckbeard. Striking over a shield isnt that great if you use overhand, because you lose versatility. You cant reach enemies legs with overhand without exposing yourself, you can fight the person in front of you and maybe the person to his right/left (with underhand, you can comfortably reach two people away from the enemy in front of you) and the overhand jab to the upper body is quite predictable because of the limited options the attacker has, and quite blockable, because of the slower, more awkward attack.
You werent rude at all, and you are entitled to your opinion.

I am getting tired of defending this. Both grips were used, however I feel that underhand is better in most situations. Here are 3 short videos from a person who loves history and does reenactment. I think he does a great job stating his opinion. 15 mins in total. Audio and visual means might manage to do what I couldnt do with words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klOc9C-aPr4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-xtFXThEOc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixm6sXe1TYE

[Slaytaninc]

Sorry, but Lindybeige isn't an expert on ANYTHING, especially not spear usage.

[Rad]

How dare you LOL? Wait til Lloyd hears of this! xD
He makes sound arguments based on logic and personal experience, and is a quite fun youtuber to watch. He doesnt have to be an expurt.
I know a bunch of people with degrees in history who had to be convinced with a lot of hardship that medieval armor doesnt weigh 100 kilos and that swords are not meant to cut through plate armor ( I hope to God there arent any of them here). It is because they study by memorizing events like mindless drones, without putting any effort into thinking. Screw them and their degrees. I trust common sense.

Who is then? Matt the Man made a video that favored overhand, but his arguments were unconvincing.
first argument: overhand allows you to throw the spear and surprise your opponent. True, but very situational. Not everyone has the luxury of throwing a weapon, some might not have a backup. So why would they tire themselves then?
second argument: underarm is tricky to use because it bothers people behind you... sorry, untrue. If held undearm, the spear can be gripped quite close to the butt end, thereby minimizing the chance of making life for the comrades behind you miserable when your hand and spear pull back. Unless theyre total douches who are making hard for you to fight by being quite literally down your neck. Then they deserve to get stabbed by the sauroter lol

[romanius24]

Obviously both types would have been used but i am not sure if thats possible to represent with animation. The current overarm animation is very simple but perhaps we could see more types of attacks added in the future.
Or at least an underarm finishing animation to show the hoplite adapting during a duel if he has to.

[Rad]

I did post a possible solution some time ago. Give units that are armed with spears only (Triarii, Hoplites, Sacred band etc) a secondary melee weapon - which would also be a spear. That way, both grips can be represented in a single unit. If the engine allows it, it will be nice to look at and historically accurate.

[Rilder]

I did post a possible solution some time ago. Give units that are armed with spears only (Triarii, Hoplites, Sacred band etc) a secondary melee weapon - which would also be a spear. That way, both grips can be represented in a single unit. If the engine allows it, it will be nice to look at and historically accurate.

As far as I know giving units two melee weapons doesn't work in the Medieval 2 engine, they will just default to the secondary weapon the moment they get engaged in combat.

[romanius24]

Yeah, they just attack a couple of times with the primary and then switch to secondary. But this would actually make sense, you have spearmen using the underarm at longer range and then go for overarm and fight at very close range.

You can also have 2 different damage numbers for the different styles.
Its actually an interesting idea for some units.

[Rad]

Exactly Rilder... well not exactly, but close! Some of them will have underhand, some overhand grip, in the same unit, at the same time! It is exploiting a stupid bug for a good cause.

[Tuuvi]

The main reason overhand is featured more in this mod is because it looks cool, manly, heroic etc. I like how it looks, for goodness sake.
I still wouldnt use it. I dont have to train every day with a spear to notice the fundamental differences between the grips... although I do once a week (it is good for letting out steam). I am young, and I am fit, I do sports. You are not talking to a neckbeard. Striking over a shield isnt that great if you use overhand, because you lose versatility. You cant reach enemies legs with overhand without exposing yourself, you can fight the person in front of you and maybe the person to his right/left (with underhand, you can comfortably reach two people away from the enemy in front of you) and the overhand jab to the upper body is quite predictable because of the limited options the attacker has, and quite blockable, because of the slower, more awkward attack.
You werent rude at all, and you are entitled to your opinion.

The EB team have always stated that historical accuracy is their primary concern. Overhand spear units aren't featured in the mod just because it looks cool.

Like others have said the reason overhand grip feels awkward and unwieldy to you is because you haven't been trained to use a spear that way. It's not just about physical strength and athleticism, I work in construction and swing a 28 oz. hammer all day but that doesn't mean I can pitch a fast ball. A professional football player would feel awkward trying to shoot a bow for the first time.

How dare you LOL? Wait til Lloyd hears of this! xD
He makes sound arguments based on logic and personal experience, and is a quite fun youtuber to watch. He doesnt have to be an expurt.
I know a bunch of people with degrees in history who had to be convinced with a lot of hardship that medieval armor doesnt weigh 100 kilos and that swords are not meant to cut through plate armor ( I hope to God there arent any of them here). It is because they study by memorizing events like mindless drones, without putting any effort into thinking. Screw them and their degrees. I trust common sense.

Professional historians are trained to analyze and interpret primary sources, which can't be taken at face value because they contain bias or were written with an agenda, among other reasons. Historical research requires a lot critical thinking, it is not just mindless memorization of facts and dates.

None of us have ever been in a real ancient field battle. We can't trust common sense, because we have no experience to base our common sense upon.

[Slaytaninc]

I've held poles about as long and as heavy as a hoplite spear. You can certainly use it overhand just as effectively as you can underhand, and with more force (better tricep utilization actually, and it's the same position you would use to throw a spear, well roughly so anyway). With a counterweight (and taper) forcing the center of balance more to the rear, you gain length that otherwise wouldn't be had. You do sacrifice some length, but depending on the size of shield being able to raise the spear shaft over your head (or above your shoulders at any rate,) is pretty useful.

So it's certainly possible to use a spear overhand, leaving only one question: if it is historically attested. If something isn't attested to it probably isn't included in the mod. With much cavalry being melee and using a spear, leaving part of the spear "retracted" in an overhand style also makes it a bit more maneuverable for stabbing with. Not all units use spears overhand, especially not "charge cavalry." Many do however.