DOL AMROTH

[Alkar]

I don't believe they need to be separated at all unless the Attila mechanics allows a VERY CLOSE relationship between the two while they are still technically "two factions".

[Bercor]

In fact during the battle for Hornburg, according to the book version no cavalry was involved, except for Erkenbrand's relief force.

Even Erkenbrand's army was composed solely by infantry (unlike in the film, where we are shown a cavalry force leaded by Éomer).

There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider, clad in white, shining in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot; their swords were in their hands. Amid them strode a man tall and strong. His shield was red. As he came to the valley's brink, he set to his lips a great black horn and blew a ringing blast.​

[Maetharin]

Even Erkenbrand's army was composed solely by infantry (unlike in the film, where we are shown a cavalry force leaded by Éomer).

But then, irc, these guys had their horses killed at the battle of the fords of isen.
IMO the Rohirrim were a nation of horsemen, which also were able to engage as infantry.

The great muster at Dunharrow were 6000 horsemen, which Theoden states at about half of the nation´s manpower.
A muster usually entails all able bodied men, and even though this was an emergency where infantry would simply have been too slow, I still believe that this was half of their entire forces.

Otherwise Theoden wouldn´t have hesitated to call upon more men, since the infantry of Rohan,
if at about the same number of men as horsemen, would have sufficed in the country´s defence when supported by about 3000 horsemen.

Also take into account the landscape of Rohan, mostly hills with lots of fat grass to feed both horses and livestock.
Irc, not a single mention of farming is mentioned when anything is written about the livelyhood of the Rohirrim.
I think they would have been herdsmen mostly, living from the livestock and the occasional supply of wheat from gondor.
This would mean perfect conditions for breeding horses.

What do you guys think?

[Alkar]

But then, irc, these guys had their horses killed at the battle of the fords of isen.
IMO the Rohirrim were a nation of horsemen, which also were able to engage as infantry.

The great muster at Dunharrow were 6000 horsemen, which Theoden states at about half of the nation´s manpower.
A muster usually entails all able bodied men, and even though this was an emergency where infantry would simply have been too slow, I still believe that this was half of their entire forces.

Otherwise Theoden wouldn´t have hesitated to call upon more men, since the infantry of Rohan,
if at about the same number of men as horsemen, would have sufficed in the country´s defence when supported by about 3000 horsemen.

Also take into account the landscape of Rohan, mostly hills with lots of fat grass to feed both horses and livestock.
Irc, not a single mention of farming is mentioned when anything is written about the livelyhood of the Rohirrim.
I think they would have been herdsmen mostly, living from the livestock and the occasional supply of wheat from gondor.
This would mean perfect conditions for breeding horses.

What do you guys think?

I think much of their forces and thinking was based upon cavalry, but that all of their forces were by no means cavalryman.

[Bercor]

But then, irc, these guys had their horses killed at the battle of the fords of isen.
IMO the Rohirrim were a nation of horsemen, which also were able to engage as infantry.

There's no specific mention of the Rohirrim having their horses killed in the Battles of the Fords of Isen. In fact, some Rohirrim soldiers in those two battle were foot soldiers:

In the end Grimbold manned the western end of the Fords with the greater part of his foot-soldiers; there they were in a strong position in the earth-forts that guarded the approaches.
He remained with the rest of his men, including what remained to him of Théodred's cavalry, on the east bank....

I think much of their forces and thinking was based upon cavalry, but that all of their forces were by no means cavalryman.

I agree with this.

[PeonKing]

It's wrong to think that any of the man/elven factions had solely only one type of unit. Rohan, as posted above, was shown to use foot soldiers, and Lorien had Sindar elves among it's population, and they were certainly known to fight with all sorts of weaponry.

Anyway, I'm definitely not for Dol Amroth having autonomy. As Alkar has expressed some doubt, the client state system really isn't robust enough to provide enough cooperation between Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth. We don't know enough about Gondor's political structure to see how much Autonomy Dol Amroth had, it certainly has an interesting culture on it's own, with the elven bloodlines and whatnot, but I think it would only serve to be problematic with how the alliance system is set up. You could very well be stuck with a lame duck ally, and Dol Amroth isn't really part of the warfront, so it would not only be a lame duck ally, but not even one you could use as a buffer state. It would've been cool if Gondor could've been split up between it's fiefs, but the system really isn't good enough for that.

I would think that providing a unique building in Dol Amroth that let you recruit Swan Knights, maybe some other Dol Amroth flavor troops (With the White Swan instead of the White Tree) just for role playing purposes that could even function statistically the same as mid tier Gondor units. If it's possible, give Imrahil a unique guard unit and maybe a few stats that he always has that are indicative of his half elven bloodline. Boom, Dol Amroth is well represented, provides a very interesting and lore accurate facet to the Gondor faction, without having to deal with a brick-headed AI client state.

[Alkar]

It's wrong to think that any of the man/elven factions had solely only one type of unit. Rohan, as posted above, was shown to use foot soldiers, and Lorien had Sindar elves among it's population, and they were certainly known to fight with all sorts of weaponry.

Anyway, I'm definitely not for Dol Amroth having autonomy. As Alkar has expressed some doubt, the client state system really isn't robust enough to provide enough cooperation between Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth. We don't know enough about Gondor's political structure to see how much Autonomy Dol Amroth had, it certainly has an interesting culture on it's own, with the elven bloodlines and whatnot, but I think it would only serve to be problematic with how the alliance system is set up. You could very well be stuck with a lame duck ally, and Dol Amroth isn't really part of the warfront, so it would not only be a lame duck ally, but not even one you could use as a buffer state. It would've been cool if Gondor could've been split up between it's fiefs, but the system really isn't good enough for that.

I would think that providing a unique building in Dol Amroth that let you recruit Swan Knights, maybe some other Dol Amroth flavor troops (With the White Swan instead of the White Tree) just for role playing purposes that could even function statistically the same as mid tier Gondor units. If it's possible, give Imrahil a unique guard unit and maybe a few stats that he always has that are indicative of his half elven bloodline. Boom, Dol Amroth is well represented, provides a very interesting and lore accurate facet to the Gondor faction, without having to deal with a brick-headed AI client state.

My thoughts exactly.

[Mr.Jox]

My thoughts exactly.

Second that

[dfool06]

Back then the reason given as to why Dol Guldur was made a separate faction is that its powerful and independent enough to be a faction of its own. Dol Amroth I think also fits that criteria. But yeah I do agree that it may become a lame duck ally instead.

Anyway here are some suggestions for the unique buildings to be found in Dol Amroth.
1. Seaward tower of Tirith Aear

Some units (these units may incorporate a combination of Numenorean and Elven cultures)
1. Dol Amroth Nobles (Elite 2 handed long sword infantry. Swords like what Aragorn is using, Gondor doesn't have any elite swordsman yet, I think). https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=k...+sword&imgrc=_

2. Swan knights or Dol Amroth knight (of course they are very obvious)

3. Dol Amroth squires - mace and long kite shields infantry, where there are knights, there are bound to be squires.
https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=k...HefGCMsQsAQIJA

4. Swan militia - similar to regular Gondor militia sword infantry but with a different unit design or model, replacing the white tree for the silver swan. But should have a much higher morale in my humble opinion.

All these units are AoR of course and they are mere suggestions.

[Alkar]

Back then the reason given as to why Dol Guldur was made a separate faction is that its powerful and independent enough to be a faction of its own. Dol Amroth I think also fits that criteria. But yeah I do agree that it may become a lame duck ally instead.

Anyway here are some suggestions for the unique buildings to be found in Dol Amroth.
1. Seaward tower of Tirith Aear

Some units (these units may incorporate a combination of Numenorean and Elven cultures)
1. Dol Amroth Nobles (Elite 2 handed long sword infantry. Swords like what Aragorn is using, Gondor doesn't have any elite swordsman yet, I think). https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=k...+sword&imgrc=_

2. Swan knights or Dol Amroth knight (of course they are very obvious)

3. Dol Amroth squires - mace and long kite shields infantry, where there are knights, there are bound to be squires.
https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=k...HefGCMsQsAQIJA

4. Swan militia - similar to regular Gondor militia sword infantry but with a different unit design or model, replacing the white tree for the silver swan. But should have a much higher morale in my humble opinion.

All these units are AoR of course and they are mere suggestions.

I believe Mr. J said they were separated to help the A.I. out. Once they are separated, Dol Guldur as the A.I. becomes more focused and aggressive on their traditional mission within the lore of destroying the Elves in its surroundings and distracting the West. It's not like Dol Amroth needs a focused mission of attacking Mordor or Harad. That wouldn't go over so well I would think.

[Mr.Jox]

No, Dol Amroth is not strong enough lol.
They sent knights to Minas Tirith and fought there alongside with other fiefdoms against Mordor, southrons and easterlings. Then came Rohirrims and together they were no able to win unless Aragorn brought soldiers from Southern fiefdoms of Gondor.
Have you never met autonomy countries in RL? Like Wales in Great Britain. It can be counted as independent but in fact it's same country as England, Scotland and North Ireland.

[In Defence Of PJ]

Instead of Dol Amroth noblemen as dfool06 suggested, have you thought about including Clansmen of Lamedon similar to those sold by the Games Workshop. I don't believe they were ever included in TATW.

[Mr.Jox]

All fiefdom units will be present with a time no worries here.

[adun12345]

I think it would be pretty cool lore-wise if Gondor could be split into multiple sub-factions, with the Stewards ruling directly over Minas Tirith and the various vassals ruling at Pelargir, Dol Amroth, Lamedon, Anfalas, etc. After all, the playable Steward faction could still get a diversity of units via the "levy units from vassals" mechanic.

That said, I also think that a vassal-Gondor would be an unmanageable mess. In vanilla TW, the Sassanid Empire is massively dysfunctional. In most games, it is stupidly overpowered, because each mini-faction brings its own 2 or 3 stacks and easily overwhelms the single-faction Eastern Roman Empire. Even if the different vassals of Gondor could be made to work together properly, the result would probably be a Gondor pile-up that would easily overwhelm its neighbors and conquer the entire map. Not exactly the feel that I think a LotR mod should be going for

[Mr.Jox]

As I said it's not lore wise. Stewards of Gondor ruled all over the Gondor. Lets split then each faction on its regions, why not? Its so cool when we have weak factions which are supposed to be one entire. Gondor is not Minas Tirith only. The way you think vassals or allies wont work and it will look like mess in that region. I would better split Harad than Gondor.

Please take a look at maps of Gondor in Second and Third ages. You will always see its not split.

[adun12345]

Respectfully, I disagree. I don't think that any of the "canon" maps are intended to provide an exact breakdown of the organization of any polity, so I'm not sure that they represent the best source one way or another. On the other hand, the text of Return of the King clearly refers to Gondor as a feudal entity, and suggests that the various local forces have pretty substantial autonomy vis a vis the orders of the Steward, i.e., the surprise expressed at how few soldiers are sent to the aid of Minas Tirith. It does not sound like a particularly centralized or well-organized polity; the Steward may rule all of Gondor, but he clearly does not command every soldier or asset directly. As such, I still think it would be cool to have a multi-faction Gondor. That's not to say that I think that a single faction Gondor is somehow lore-inaccurate, but rather that a multi-faction Gondor would match the existing lore (as I understand it) marginally better.

I'm also not sure that multi-faction polities are "weak," given (as I mentioned before) how stupidly powerful the Sassanids are in Vanilla. In fact, my biggest concern with a multi-faction Gondor is that it would be too strong.

For the record, I also think that multi-faction Easterlings and Haradrim would also be cool, though subject to the same mechanical shortcomings as a multi-faction Gondor.

[Mr.Jox]

Yeah I agree maps do not display organisation of the administration. Though it shows the corners of the country. You correctly underlined it's feudal-like organization which exist within one country/faction and cant exist between two factions(its called vassal).
Besides that, split factions won't behave as feudal kingdoms and it will more look like a mess in that region because each will do what it wants and you almost won't see any kind of aid from your vassals. Besides that they will be extremely weak, have no unit variety(how much time it would take us to create at least one fictional faction roster?).
And we never heard of fiefdoms without Gondor word in a sentence. Also remember a Civil War in Gondor in early Third Age? It was a war within Gondor Kingdom between different fiefs, including even Umbar​.

And always keep in mind there's RL examples of feudal kingdoms where within one country there's a couple of feifdoms or even autonomies(like Dol Amroth). But it's still one country with one leader.

[Commissar Caligula_]

Heres my input, coming from someone with next to 0 knowledge about the lore.
I believe that the mod should first and foremost, facilitate fun gameplay for the player. If it is a choice between good gameplay, or being incredibly strict to the lore, I think the gameplay should always win out.
What you guys seem to be discussing (I didn't read all of it), is whether or not the city of Dol Amroth should be its own faction.
Positives I can think of for this are:
Could be a detailed faction
Greater challenge for the player
Possibly lore friendly depending on interpretation of the Middle Earth universe (idk)

Cons:
It could be easily wiped out by the AI, making it useless, and depriving Gondor of a potentially powerful city.
Due to its smallness, the AI playing as Dol Amroth might be useless and not pose a challenge/help.
Increases the work load creating a custom roster for a single city faction that people who have only seen the Peter Jackson films haven't even heard of.

So basically, I figure its not worth the effort, and could hinder gameplay.

[Drag0]

Gondor has a feudal organization, but remains one country. Gondor controls Ithilien, Anorien, Lossarnach, Belfalas, Dol Amroth, etc.. under a only country. These regions form Gondor like England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales form UK.
kind regards

[adun12345]

I don't think that questions of sovereignty and rulership under feudalism are as clear-cut as you believe. Saying that the Steward "rules" all of Gondor does not necessarily mean that he enjoys direct administrative (or even military-fiscal) control over all parts of Gondor. A multi-faction Gondor would still be ruled by the Steward in Minas Tirith (the provincial factions would be vassals of the core faction), even if effective control (constructing buildings, training units, commanding local armies) occurred in the provinces. Nor would a messy feudal kingdom with overlapping jurisdictions be unrealistic. Again, I think that the lore on Gondor's political organization is at best ambiguous, so I have no objection to a single-faction polity, but I also think that a multi-faction Gondor would fit the lore equally well (if not a little better). In my mind, the fact that it would be disorganized and messy only adds one more dimension of lore to the game; inReturn of the King, Gondor was a mess.

In any event, we're in agreement that it would be a bad idea for mechanical reasons.