Research Thread: Croatia

[tmina32]

I'll post all the pics of the Croatian warriors I have here.

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Warrior, 11th century

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Horseman, 11th century

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Guard in the city of Zadar, early 13th century

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Knight, 12th century (may not be historical)

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Castle guard, 12th century

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Southern-Croatian warrior, 13th century

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Dalmatian soldiers, 13th century

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Crossbowman, 15th century

[Ltd.]

Great. Thanks

[tmina32]

Ban of Croatia (Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić, from Hrvoje's Missal, 15th century)

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[tmina32]

Croatian Noble Houses

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House of Kačić

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Counts of Krk (Frankopani)

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House of Zrinski

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House of Nelipčić

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House of Babonić

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House of Hrvatinić

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House of Šubić

[tmina32]

After the Croats elected Hungarian kings as kings of Croatia in 1102, the title of ban acquired the meaning of viceroy - bans were appointed by the King, as his representatives in Kingdom of Croatia, heads of the Sabor and also as supreme commander of Croatian Army.
The king was crowned separately, as the king of Hungary and as the king of Croatia in the respective countries. This practice was abandoned in later centuries.
The king exercised the following rights in the Kingdom of Croatia:

• Appointing a ban
• Giving grants and privileges
• Approval of the laws passed by the Sabor
• Collecting royal taxes
• Governing the royal holdings
• Commanding the army
• Managing foreign policy

However, the Kingdom was mostly managed by the ban, in the name of the king.
The Kingdom of Croatia was governed by the 'viceregal' ban as a whole between 1102 and 1225.

[tmina32]

Map of Croatia in the mid-13th century

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[Tzar]

Croatia was part of Hungary in the 13th century

http://www.emersonkent.com/images/eu...th_century.jpg

[Visarion]

Great stuff! Hope your guys will be in! I always had an interest on Croatia... but don't ask me why... it's so mysterious and all...

[+Marius+]

13th century archer, Croatia;

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He has a recurve/composite bow, as a lot of Europeans did contrary to popular belief.

[+Marius+]

A little Coat of Arms gallery;

Coat of Arms of the kingdom of Croatia

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Counties

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Lordships

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Noble families

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[Ltd.]

Good research . Marius, before I look up and read up on all of the noble families, could you please name me 4 of the most important ones around 1212. Unfortunately only 4 as there can be only 4 variants in a unit if we are to have the shield have the same COA as the surcoat.

[+Marius+]

most important ones around 1212.

Nelipčić family, with duke Domald who was the duke of the coastal cities of Split, Šibenik, Klis, Trogir and lord of Cetina county at the time.

Bribirski family, with Grgur, lords of Bribir.

Frankopan family, who were counts of Modruš, Bartolomej is the family patriarch at the time.

Babonić family, with Stjepan, dukes of Vodice.

These along with others already mentioned above.

And sigh, all your nagging about the shape of Croatia makes me question whether Zadar should go to Venice or Croatia. The name Zadar stays as it was pretty important for a longer period of time.

Whats with the obsession with Zadar though?

It was destroyed just a decade before the mod startdate and its recovery just started a few years before 1212, all other coastal cities are still within Croatia, most notably Split, Bribir(the actual crown city) and Šibenik.

This one is norman, not croat.

Yup I searched for units from this tims and the unit above is indeed Norman...

It is a generic knight made by a Croatian illustrator.

There is absolutely nothing about him that makes him exclusively Norman...apart from maybe the shield decoration.

He is wearing a phrygian helmet, a very common looking kite shield and some weird looking(probably completely ahistorical) studded leather armor.

Croats had a lot of contact with the Normans of Sicily, so it is probably an easy cop out by the illustrator to sum up some recognizable equipment.

[warman222]

... 5 ... we can do 5... and that's not counting nesting...

[jan_boruta]

Hm, wondering if I should change the faction symbol for Croatia? Currently It's the iconic red and white checkerboard pattern. Though, I don't know if I should use an azure shield like here, or a gules (red) shield. Wappenwiki shows both.

And sigh, all your nagging about the shape of Croatia makes me question whether Zadar should go to Venice or Croatia. The name Zadar stays as it was pretty important for a longer period of time. Historically it should go to Venice, game balance also suggests that. But I have a sneaky suspicion that going against history and giving it to Croatia would silence a lot of criticism (and satisfy my desire for esthetically pleasing borders)

[tmina32]

Good research . Marius, before I look up and read up on all of the noble families, could you please name me 4 of the most important ones around 1212. Unfortunately only 4 as there can be only 4 variants in a unit if we are to have the shield have the same COA as the surcoat.

... 5 ... we can do 5... and that's not counting nesting...

I gave the 7 most important families, and if we can do 5, they should be these ones: Kačić, Frankopan, Babonić, Šubić and then either Hrvatinić or Nelipčić (can't decide).
So exclude the Zrinski.

However, I'd recommend to wait and see what marius has to say.

Interestingly, the ban of Croatia in 1212. was a member of an offbranch of House Kačić, it seems some of them moved to Hungary and their name hungarized to Kacsics.
You can find their crest in the House of Kačić on the wappenwiki, just scroll down.

And sigh, all your nagging about the shape of Croatia makes me question whether Zadar should go to Venice or Croatia. The name Zadar stays as it was pretty important for a longer period of time. Historically it should go to Venice, game balance also suggests that. But I have a sneaky suspicion that going against history and giving it to Croatia would silence a lot of criticism (and satisfy my desire for esthetically pleasing borders)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domald_of_Sidraga

This guy captured Zadar back in 1209. (after it was sacked by crusaders in 1204.) and held it until 1210., so it would make some historical sense to give it to Croatia, plus a lot of land would be owned by the correct faction.

It's not 100% historical, but none of the options are.

[FrozenmenSS]

Really nice info for Croatia in that time period.I really like the soldiers and the coast of arms.

[achilles-91]

Knight, 12th century

This one is norman, not croat.

[matija191]

This one is norman, not croat.

Nope, according to the author itself, this illustration depicts knight from anywhere of Western Europe, from Scotland and Portugal on the west to the Poland, Hungary and Croatia on the east.They have depicted an actual Norman knight, and he is not similar to this one.As for "croatness" of this knight, kite-shaped shield with dragon/serpent like motif is present on the bronze plaque dated to 11th century, found near Split.Phrygian style helmet are found on the depictions of soldiers from wooden relief on the doors of Cathedral of the saint Dujam in Split, made by Andrija Buvina in 1214.Also, two-handed axe is documented in archeological finds in Croatia, and soldiers from wooden relief in Split cathedral are armed with two-handed axe.To be honest, this dragon to me has more similarities with the one of the Kacic clan than with those from norman shields depicted on Bayeux tapestry.So, author drew a lot of inspiration from medieval Croatia for this illustration.


As for the thread itself, here are depictions of soldiers from Split cathedral made in 1214.Some of the soldiers wear byzantine style armor and have phrygian-style helmets, other less armored wear skullcap who appears to be predecessor of bascinet.All shields are round ones, usual ones and bucklers, as are the shields from Trogir reliefs dated in half 13th C (Matthaeus presented those here).Weapons depicted here are swords, two-handed axes, spears and some sort of pole-arms (spear with very large head):

http://www.eu.godina.kulturne-bastin...%20%283%29.jpg
http://www.eu.godina.kulturne-bastin...%20%284%29.jpg
http://dizbi.hazu.hr/object/2505
http://dizbi.hazu.hr/object/2507

[Visarion]

Yup I searched for units from this tims and the unit above is indeed Norman...

[tmina32]

Huh, the croatian author made me think the knight was croatian...

He did seem a bit strange!

On the topic, I don't want to give an impression that the croatian army was mostly byzantine-like, those soldiers with lamellar armor were mostly from the coastal cities like Dubrovnik, Split, Zadar etc.
The vast majority of the croatian army probably had more of a western-frankish influence.