Concern Over Cavalry Charge (Not the Usual)

[savage_rabbit]

Having seen cavalry charges work appropriately, I have noticed that when they do (lances down, full on collision with opposing formation) they usually completely flatten the formation, sometimes killing up to 90% of the enemy depending on the # of enemies left and type of enemy. Is anyone else worried that cavalry may become overpowered if charges are altered to happen correctly?

[Preskinn]

They do indeed, but it allso depends on how wel armored they are and especially how deep their ranks go. 2-3 ranks is a piece of cake, naturaly.

[Savage_Swede]

95% of all cavalry charges i see is just wasted time and manpower. They pick up their swords and stop infront of the enemy, only to get massacred by anything. But there have also been these really odd moments of joy when my cavalry manages to do a textbook charge.

They line up in two long lines with their lances. And i double-click and the horses charge, still holding their lines nicely. And they keep their pace until impact where they manage to kill ALOT of any kind of enemy they hit

[lawngnome]

Well, he's only talking about the charges that work. Yeah, if you charge a thin-ranked opponent you will massacre them... as you should... and if you charge deep-formed spears your horses will practically spontaneoulsy combust and you will see the remaining 2 or 3 flee in terror. I think charges are fine... archers and peasants should be mutilated, as they are, while other infantry just take a severe beating.

[savage_rabbit]

Can you imagine a horse hitting a man in heavy armor? One with a prepared weapon? Horses, fast and heavy or not, are creatures not tanks and one would be pretty exhausted/wounded/dead after "trampling under hoof" two rows of such a foe. I have, however, seen mounted knights completely steamroll entire units of dismounted knights.

Also, they don't just steamroll units that are 2-3 lines deep. I have seen a unit that was so thick it almost formed a square be reduced to about one and a half ranks deep by a proper charge.

You also have to keep in mind that these numbers are representative of the far greater numbers that would be in a real battle. Ranks would always been thicker than 2-3 rows of men and it would not be an easy (or feasible) task to merely flatten an entire unit of prepared heavy infantry.

[NoSiS]

if only you could save replays of campaign battles..

i'm playing as scotland, now thats worth mentioning because scotland has some of the worst cavalry in the game (i love the border horse though, even if its fragile as glass)

facing england, i have 2 units of feudal knights, 1 unit of border horse (3 gold chevrons of xp) and 2 generals bodyguard (my king and prince) - i also have the high ground

england, has 2 units of yeoman, 2 units of merc crossbowmen, 2 units of dismounted feudal knights, 1 unit of dismounted english knights, 3 units of spear militita and the general

my 5 units of cavalry decimated the entire english army in one charge, i had them charge the infantry and ignore the archers, as they got close to the archers they began to skirmish but were close enough to the infantry that the cavalry began its charge and just ran down the missile units, and than either completely eliminated or broke all the infantry units, the general than charged into my cavalry but being outnumbered 6-1 he broke instantly aswell

heroic victory, in under 5 minutes

so, yes, cavalry is a bit overpowered - but i dont think thats unrealistic, cavalry WAS the dominant force in the middle ages

[savage_rabbit]

You think that's realistic?? There's a big difference between a type of soldier wiping out entire armies in almost moments and it being a superior unit in its era of warfare.

This is truly ridiculous and dangerous to gameplay.

[NoSiS]

You think that's realistic?? There's a big difference between a type of soldier wiping out entire armies in almost moments and it being a superior unit in its era of warfare.

This is truly ridiculous and dangerous to gameplay.

not so much realistic, as not very unrealistic

all of the english units were only a 3-4 ranks deep, and the cavalry was charging down hill

i agree 100% that its imbalanced, but so was history

EDIT: agreed with the poster above me

also, id like to add that if you want to really test cavalry, put them up against pikes and gunpowder and see how they get crushed

[Preskinn]

Which Factions can have Muskuters/handgunners? And what sort of buildings do you need? Played as both england and Scotland, niether seems to get them.

[Molina]

I got a unit of Sword and Bucklers completely destroyed (every single man died) in one Mongol Heavy Cavalry charge (1 gold chevron). Head-on. My unit wasn't moving, either, and was well formed.

Can't say much about it right now, tough.

[savage_rabbit]

not so much realistic, as not very unrealistic

Excuse me? I haven't taken any advanced courses in logic, but....

i agree 100% that its imbalanced, but so was history

Give me some actual historical evidence and then I may agree with you. For some reason I am not compelled to simply take your word that cavalry units flattened entire armies in one fell swoop.

also, id like to add that if you want to really test cavalry, put them up against pikes and gunpowder and see how they get crushed

Firstly, pikes should not be the only thing to not be crushed by cavalry. Not even all factions have pikes available! Also, gunpowder units will be OBLITERATED by a head-on cavalry charge. They might get two volleys off in ideal circumstances, at the most.

Spear units, supposedly good against cavalry, are also completely laid out by horsemen. Any unit without a 9 foot pole between itself and the heavy cavalry is trampled underfoot like so much underbrush.

[Hedniskhjäertad]

Well, first we hear about cavalry beeing weak, bugged and everything. Now they are overpowered.

You said that horses aren't tanks, but.. They were the tanks of the medieval times. O_o Forget about Muslim horses, those are little doggies. Now, focus on the heavy knights of the west. We're talking about big and nasty horses, trained from birth to trample and bite men. And riding the horse is a man with a full plate armor, and a big nasty lance. Mind you, that by the late~high ages, they could just pull their lances back and use it again.

Now, let's talk about 100 men, knee to knee, charging slowly. When they are close enough, they unleash hell. 100 Horses coming at full speed, armored, lances down.

Now let's see your 'Dismounted Knights', wearing plate armor on a tight space (Less chances of dodging the spear), with a shield and a sword. You know what would happen if you didn't had pikes on the first row ? Slaughter.

When the first man is hitten, he is pushed back, and so on.

Now, let's talk about physics. One of my teachers, once did the math to see the strenght of a cavalry charge. And well.. Mind you, it's just like beeing hit by a car. Tell me, wich man can hold a shield against an strong and trained horse, much stronger and heavier than him ?

Cavalry isn't overpowered. Cavalry should be dominant.
And you can counter them, pikes, spears, longbows. You should never have dismounted knights armed with swords to fight cavalry head on. You would lose anyway.

And i'm not even talking about a charge on the flanks or from behind, this would completely destroy everything.

And if you want to see some nice cavalry action, try to battle the french with lots of heavy horses, with the English, using your weak infantry & retinue longbowmens. Usually, i seen 5~7 knights going down on a full volley of direct impact arrows. Its beautiful. Specially when you're defending a bridge and they are packed together.

Sorry for the bad english.

[savage_rabbit]

Well, first we hear about cavalry beeing weak, bugged and everything. Now they are overpowered.

You said that horses aren't tanks, but.. They were the tanks of the medieval times. O_o Forget about Muslim horses, those are little doggies. Now, focus on the heavy knights of the west. We're talking about big and nasty horses, trained from birth to trample and bite men. And riding the horse is a man with a full plate armor, and a big nasty lance. Mind you, that by the late~high ages, they could just pull their lances back and use it again.

Now, let's talk about 100 men, knee to knee, charging slowly. When they are close enough, they unleash hell. 100 Horses coming at full speed, armored, lances down.

Now let's see your 'Dismounted Knights', wearing plate armor on a tight space (Less chances of dodging the spear), with a shield and a sword. You know what would happen if you didn't had pikes on the first row ? Slaughter.

When the first man is hitten, he is pushed back, and so on.

Now, let's talk about physics. One of my teachers, once did the math to see the strenght of a cavalry charge. And well.. Mind you, it's just like beeing hit by a car. Tell me, wich man can hold a shield against an strong and trained horse, much stronger and heavier than him ?

Cavalry isn't overpowered. Cavalry should be dominant.
And you can counter them, pikes, spears, longbows. You should never have dismounted knights armed with swords to fight cavalry head on. You would lose anyway.

And i'm not even talking about a charge on the flanks or from behind, this would completely destroy everything.

And if you want to see some nice cavalry action, try to battle the french with lots of heavy horses, with the English, using your weak infantry & retinue longbowmens. Usually, i seen 5~7 knights going down on a full volley of direct impact arrows. Its beautiful. Specially when you're defending a bridge and they are packed together.

Sorry for the bad english.

None of you seem to bring into account the fact that the amount of men in this game are completely disproportionate to accurately historical numbers. It looks like you all ignored my point about the fact that there would never be lines merely 2-3 ranks deep.

Your 'math teacher did calculations to determine the power of a charging horse'? And he found it equivalent to a car? This doesn't even make a lick of logical sense! A horse cannot go nearly as fast as a car, neither does it weigh anywhere near as much. Your 'math teacher' sounds like a charlatan.

And if you intend to power up cavalry like this, irregardless of proportion, then go ahead and make longbows as deadly as they would have been also! They should be taking out a lot more than 5-7 knights with one volley, that's for sure!

[Hedniskhjäertad]

None of you seem to bring into account the fact that the amount of men in this game are completely disproportionate to accurately historical numbers. It looks like you all ignored my point about the fact that there would never be lines merely 2-3 ranks deep.

And so are the cavalry, mate. A common gendarme company would be able to bring 100 knights into a single charging force.

Your 'math teacher did calculations to determine the power of a charging horse'? And he found it equivalent to a car? This doesn't even make a lick of logical sense! A horse cannot go nearly as fast as a car, neither does it weigh anywhere near as much. Your 'math teacher' sounds like a charlatan.

He is not a math teacher, he is an history teacher. Did you read what i've written at all ? I did not say that it's like beeing hit by a big car at 100 mph. But, when the man suffered the impact from the spear, it could produce the same impact as a car. And horses are not heavy ? Well, then you truly never seen a 'war' horse. They are WAY bigger than your average 'racing' horse.

According to some sources ( Sir Charles Oman " A History of the Art of War in the Middle Ages") the hourse could weight more than 900 kg, when fully amored and with a fully armored knight. Well, my car has 800 kg. Guess what ? The knight is heavier.

Now, an average charge would go at 40~50 km/h on the moment of impact. All the strenght in a single spear. I can't even imagine what would happen to a human being when hit by that. But i can tell you, 100 knights hitting an human mass like this, is a clearly bad thing for the defenders.

But as said before, pikes + gunpowder, or even normal pikes + any shock troop. Can destroy ANY cavalry. When the cavalry reach the pikes, it will take heavy losses, then charge your shock troops and see what they make.

On one of my games, i had a unit of Scots Pikemen holding a English Knight, then charged with a unit of Highland Nobles from the side. Guess what, the 'overpowered' knights routed in no time.

And if you intend to power up cavalry like this, irregardless of proportion, then go ahead and make longbows as deadly as they would have been also! They should be taking out a lot more than 5-7 knights with one volley, that's for sure!

Lot more than 5~7 knights on a volley ? Well, we're talking about 64 knights on 'huge' (Or large, can't remember). So, it takes away almost 1/10 of the knights on a volley. They can hit the knights 3~4 times before they get close. That would make at least 15 dead before the impact. Now add the lucky shots, at least 20 dead before the charge is near. Now, i usually bring 5~6 longbowens, if all focus on a single target, it can rout before it reaches my lines. Of course, i'm talking about an experienced retinue longbowmen trained with a Woodsmen Guild against chivalric knights. Heavier knights take less losses.

Talk about overpowered cavalry.

The one, and only, thing that is overpowered is the Norse War Clerics. War 'Clerics' shouldn't be THAT disciplined to fight even other catholics.

Perhaps also a "max units reached" feature like with merchants. Knights have to be nobles, and nobles have to have lands. You can't just make more land after all.
)

I agree, on some aspects. But i disagree that knights 'have to be nobles'. The French Gendarme were not nobles, but a professional knight force.

But yes, most of the other knights would need to be limited. They should be a shock force, only avaible to your main army. An truly weapon of mass destruction. That was one of the reasons why Edward III made their nobles fight without horses against the french on several battles.

The problem is, with the current aspect of the game, you can have LOTS of knights. And that, i agree, is quite stupid.

[savage_rabbit]

And so are the cavalry, mate. A common gendarme company would be able to bring 100 knights into a single charging force.

And your point is...? They would still be vastly outnumbered by any organized infantry force to speak of. Not to say that they wouldn't be effective against them under any circumstances (since it seems like that's what some of you are trying to convery that I'm saying), but the sure as Hell would not pass over them like a lightning steamroller.

[QUOTE=Hedniskhjäertad;1348180]He is not a math teacher, he is an history teacher. Did you read what i've written at all ? I did not say that it's like beeing hit by a big car at 100 mph. But, when the man suffered the impact from the spear, it could produce the same impact as a car.

And horses are not heavy ? Well, then you truly never seen a 'war' horse. They are WAY bigger than your average 'racing' horse.

Who said horses are not heavy? And how do you mix up 'seeing' and 'weighing' a warhorse?

According to some sources ( Sir Charles Oman " A History of the Art of War in the Middle Ages") the hourse could weight more than 900 kg, when fully amored and with a fully armored knight. Well, my car has 800 kg. Guess what ? The knight is heavier.

Not all cars are as light as yours and a horse (especially one clad in armor bearing a fully clad knight) can under no circumstances match the speed of any modern car.

My mistake about the math teacher, however. Although you didn't say he was your history teacher either.

Now, an average charge would go at 40~50 km/h on the moment of impact. All the strenght in a single spear. I can't even imagine what would happen to a human being when hit by that. But i can tell you, 100 knights hitting an human mass like this, is a clearly bad thing for the defenders.

Where do you even get your information? The faster thoroughbread racing horses (sans armor...) are clocked at 50 mph across the finish line! You seem to have some misconceptions about the capabilities of the equestrian species.

Oh, and nevermind that realistically those 100 knights are likely opposed by 10x their number.

But as said before, pikes + gunpowder, or even normal pikes + any shock troop. Can destroy ANY cavalry. When the cavalry reach the pikes, it will take heavy losses, then charge your shock troops and see what they make.

On one of my games, i had a unit of Scots Pikemen holding a English Knight, then charged with a unit of Highland Nobles from the side. Guess what, the 'overpowered' knights routed in no time.

I already addressed pikes. More than once. They are the only unit than can effectively stop a proper charge from knights. Also, you seem to be forgetting that I am not addressing cavalry as overpowered right now, but overpowered hypothetically once the charges are "fixed."

Lot more than 5~7 knights on a volley ? Well, we're talking about 64 knights on 'huge' (Or large, can't remember). So, it takes away almost 1/10 of the knights on a volley. They can hit the knights 3~4 times before they get close. That would make at least 15 dead before the impact. Now add the lucky shots, at least 20 dead before the charge is near. Now, i usually bring 5~6 longbowens, if all focus on a single target, it can rout before it reaches my lines. Of course, i'm talking about an experienced retinue longbowmen trained with a Woodsmen Guild against chivalric knights. Heavier knights take less losses.

Considering that at Crecy thousands of French knights were massacred en route to the English lines and routed before engaging in melee in repeated attempts to attack the English positions, yes they are underpowered. And in ideal circumstances in this game, with a direct cavalry charge over open terrain toward a longbowman unit, they may get off 3 volleys if they are lucky. But I've certainly never seen longbows force cavalry to withdraw before engaging in melee in this game. Also, the heaviness of the knights should not decrease the effectiveness of the longbows, at least not by a significant amount. Also, in your post you did not say "5-7 knights per unit per volley," you simply made a vague statement about 5-7 knights dead when obviously the archers will be massed already.

[Hedniskhjäertad]

And your point is...? They would still be vastly outnumbered by any organized infantry force to speak of. Not to say that they wouldn't be effective against them under any circumstances (since it seems like that's what some of you are trying to convery that I'm saying), but the sure as Hell would not pass over them like a lightning steamroller.

Yes. They should be outnumbered. That's a game mistake. But they shouldn't be WEAKER.

Who said horses are not heavy? And how do you mix up 'seeing' and 'weighing' a warhorse?

Not all cars are as light as yours and a horse (especially one clad in armor bearing a fully clad knight) can under no circumstances match the speed of any modern car.

My mistake about the math teacher, however. Although you didn't say he was your history teacher either.


Where do you even get your information? The faster thoroughbread racing horses (sans armor...) are clocked at 50 mph across the finish line! You seem to have some misconceptions about the capabilities of the equestrian species.

I said KM/H, and not MP/H. 50 mph = almost 80 km/h. And there are higher speeds for racing horses. I believe that the top speed record is 90 km/h. Thats almost the double of what i said.

Oh, and nevermind that realistically those 100 knights are likely opposed by 10x their number.
.

I already addressed pikes. More than once. They are the only unit than can effectively stop a proper charge from knights. Also, you seem to be forgetting that I am not addressing cavalry as overpowered right now, but overpowered hypothetically once the charges are "fixed."

I'm saying that their strenght is fine, but their numbers is.. simply wrong. The entire french army on the Battle of Poitiers had 300 knights. You can have WAY more than that on a single full stack.

Considering that at Crecy thousands of French knights were massacred en route to the English lines and routed before engaging in melee in repeated attempts to attack the English positions, yes they are underpowered. And in ideal circumstances in this game, with a direct cavalry charge over open terrain toward a longbowman unit, they may get off 3 volleys if they are lucky. But I've certainly never seen longbows force cavalry to withdraw before engaging in melee in this game. Also, the heaviness of the knights should not decrease the effectiveness of the longbows, at least not by a significant amount. Also, in your post you did not say "5-7 knights per unit per volley," you simply made a vague statement about 5-7 knights dead when obviously the archers will be massed already.

Yes. Crecy, Poitiers.. We can keep all day talking about the longbow victories over the french. But, if the french could reach the longbow, you know what would happen.

Knights should be strong and a shock force, not the bulk of your army.

[Ludicus]

From savage_rabbit:

I already addressed pikes. More than once. They are the only unit than can effectively stop a proper charge from knights. Also, you seem to be forgetting that I am not addressing cavalry as overpowered right now, but overpowered hypothetically once the charges are "fixed."

Yes,that´s my opinion too.

[Pre]

Dismounted Enlgish Kinghts use warpikes/hammers tho..

[Hedniskhjäertad]

Dismounted Enlgish Kinghts use warpikes/hammers tho..

They are not good against cavalry, since their formation is quite loosened. As the english, i find myself using fully upgraded levy spearmen to hold against heavy cavalry, and using armored swordsmen & heavy billmen as shock troops. And lots of longbows.

And play on defensive. Stakes can destroy anything that the AI send to you if used right.

The game shouldn't be balanced or paper-rock-scissors. Reality isn't balanced.

And after the charge, if the dismounted knights get the cavalry on melee, the cavalry will get heavy losses. But usually, a nice charge is all you need to bring the infantry to their knees.

[Ludicus]

Usually,in my experience in the game,cavalry is very good. But they are not very sucefull against pikemen.(on contrary)