Why are rebel factions seemingly invisible to the AI?

**marceror** · February 12, 2016, 09:57 PM

I'm observing something pretty consistently in my games. It is that when a region gets taken over by a rebel faction for whatever reason no AI faction really ever seems to try to claim it. I have gone so far as to sack such settlements so that they have 0 defenses, and even than no one seems interested even remotely. Even if the original owning faction has plenty of military force nearby, they are all apparently engaged in receiving their time critical manicures. I mean, you can't do war properly if your soldiers have cuticles, right? That just wouldn't be civilized. The Western Romans retaking an undefended and historically integral region like Neapolis? Maybe not. 'Tis a silly place! Let's go search for... a cup, instead.

**marceror** · February 12, 2016, 10:47 PM

Seems like a few lines of code got left out when the game shipped, and they haven't been added back since....

**Darios** · February 13, 2016, 01:05 AM

Yes, I have noticed this problem as well. The CAI has a thing for attacking the WRE/ERE proper, but doesn't make the same beeline for Italia, Pontos, Gaul, Hispania, Africa, etc. It's part of the reason why the WRE and ERE get ripped apart so easily in campaigns.

**marceror** · February 13, 2016, 04:01 AM

Yeah, that's certainly one effect of this behavior. The other is that the AI will fail to properly expand and/or reclaim its important territories once they are in the hands of rebels. Often this means that a province in which 2 of 3 regions are held does not get reclaimed, and therefore cannot be balanced as effectively. I don't necessarily have a problem with the AI prioritizing the WRE/ERE, as that's sort of the point of Total War Attila. But at least it should reclaim its lost territories when it can do so without a major challenge. It will often try if it's held by anyone other than a rebel. But if it's lost to a rebel the region might as well never existed for them. I really think this is a bug, and its unfortunate that it will likely never get addressed.

**Yerevan** · February 13, 2016, 05:30 AM

I witnessed this too. It makes one more obstacle to a proper AI empire building. If this problem is confirmed it shpoud definitively be drawn to CA attention*.

* although, I don't know how to do that. Thats' why I opened this thread : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...all-beg-for%29

Not sure it will help but who knows...

**Pater_Patriae** · February 13, 2016, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by marceror

I don't necessarily have a problem with the AI prioritizing the WRE/ERE, as that's sort of the point of Total War Attila. But at least it should reclaim its lost territories when it can do so without a major challenge. It will often try if it's held by anyone other than a rebel.

What I have been seeing is that all celtic/germanic factions work together to defeat the WRE. They remain quite friendly with each other and rarely go to war. So in the cases where a tribe captures a roman city, the AI also passes them over to continue attacking the WRE. I guess this happens because of diplomatic bonuses for having mutual enemies. But realistically... the Picts would have had much more to fear from the Saxons then the WRE in the 5th century. I don't think they offically ally, but they have some sort of diplomatic reason to not fight each other. The Visigoths and Ostrogoths fought on opposing sides of the WRE's hunnic wars.... The bro-like relationship of the barbarians I think this needs to change too.

**PraetorinBlue** · February 13, 2016, 02:37 PM

I think the problem is with Imperium. The WRE is a major faction that is working its way up the tech tree. Which is ATW's only way to gain Imperium. That makes it a target for the AI. I would assume the rebel regions don't work on tech, and the regional roman separatists do not inherit their parents tech/imperium level. That on top of diplomatic penalties keep the AI's eye focused squarely on the WRE.

The Imperium system in ATW is something I think needs to be looked at very closely. Its my understanding that it goes up as you research tech so that small fractions and hordes can grow their imperium. But as its only though the tech tree, that means they develop their imperium level nearly as fast as the ROMAN EMPIRE. Which makes no sense. I like how R2 based imperium. As your empire grew, you gained imperium. And if you lost regions, it went down. That would rightly make the WRE/ERE the big targets. As they then lose ground, they become less dangerous and the AI starts looking around at its own regions and hopefully start to expand their empires rather then continuing to chase the Empire down. That makes sense in that as the WRE lost hold of their provinces... they were taken less and less seriously until finishing them off was a minor coup, not some epic battle.

But, I think AoC does it even better. It looks to be a blend of tech tree, regions and buildings that improve your Imperium. This makes a TON of sense. You need all three to really have a high imperium. If you are a small faction that research's smart, then you can get your imperium up...but not as fast as a major kingdom. If you conquer new land(or hold onto what you got) your imperium also is higher. Adding the imperium from some buildings is a nice added touch. if you go to the trouble to build these, you are basically saying to the world... "Hey, I got the wealth and sophistication to build these buildings!" and the AI would rightly get jealous of that too. The three pronged approach keeps it flexible and means imperium really shows how powerful/rich a faction is. Not just how many tech's they've researched.

The biggest problem though probably still lies with the Germanic 'bloc'. (Celts and Vikings welcome too). There is no real conflict between the Germans, or Celts or Vikings. Sometimes a faction's region is conquered, but then they just horde and head for the roman empire anyway. Ignored by other members of the bloc. But I would think the 5th century Celts would have more to fear from the Saxons, then the romans... And, historically... various Germans would ally with the Roman empire against other Germans. The Visigoths are the prime example. Working with the empire both against the Vandals and the Hunnic led Ostrogoth's.(or, more the gothic tribes that would become the Ostrogoth's. -The Ostrogoth's as a political unit didn't really form until after the fall of the Hunnic empire) Point being, sometimes it made more sense to work WITH the romans then just sack their cities. Prior to the last patch, the ERE had to face the mighty Persian Bloc. The White Huns and a reworking of wealth made the situation much more balanced. It was good work. I hope the Slavic patch changes the balance of the Germanic bloc so it more realistically shows the divides within the Germanic community. The East Empire got its rebalance, its time for the West's to get its.

**Darios** · February 13, 2016, 03:11 PM

It is rather silly how the Celts (just using them as an example) tend to ignore Britain (if for example the Romans raze it) and make a beeline for Gaul and Spain (Roman territory). If the Romans do try to defend their British territory then the Celts will go all out and attempt to take it. The Ebdanians, Picts, and Caledonians all enjoy warm and friendly diplomatic relations with one another, united in their mutual hatred for the WRE.

It seem so me that the Celts, Germans, and Vikings are programmed to hate the WRE as the entity, not so much as in they are interested looking for new territory that the WRE just happens to be sitting on. This is something that I hope CA will take a look at because the Romans should be able to form close partnerships with various barbarian tribes and form coalitions in order to counter the Hunnic threat. (The same also goes for the Huns - they should be geared more towards absorbing other tribes as allies/vassals rather than razing the entire map but I digress...) Maybe this is where the "Give Region" (available in all scenarios) needs to make a comeback. If the Romans offer territory to a tribe then it would come with the reward of friendlier diplomatic relations. I know that it already exists in the game if a migrating horde is on your territory, but it needs to be expanded a bit.

No one really likes ATW's imperium system because as the joke goes - you become a "Great Power" after researching campfires. AoC does seem to do a good job of balancing imperium between territorial holdings and research and I think that it would fit nicely in the frame of the Grand Campaign.

**marceror** · February 13, 2016, 04:02 PM

I think the imperium observation is a good one. I'm not sure if it's the whole issue, but it is likely a factor.

Originally Posted by Darios

No one really likes ATW's imperium system because as the joke goes - you become a "Great Power" after researching campfires. AoC does seem to do a good job of balancing imperium between territorial holdings and research and I think that it would fit nicely in the frame of the Grand Campaign.

I always find it somewhat amusing (and somewhat saddening) that as CA releases expansions/DLCs, it's clear they've realized weaknesses in their earlier titles and they address those with their expansions. But of course, not retroactively in most cases. Campaigns tend to go from bad, better, better, etc, by and large. Of course, there are plenty of regressions along the way too, and the imperium system for Attila is one of those in my opinion.

**You_Guess_Who** · February 13, 2016, 04:42 PM

I think the underlying cause for all of this are some simple basic things:

1> A Separatist or Rebel Faction DO NOT inherit their parent faction diplomatic relations.

2> Since a Separatist or Rebel Faction in default at war with their parent faction, it automatically improves relations with other factions that already at war with their parent faction.

Originally Posted by Pater_Patriae

What I have been seeing is that all celtic/germanic factions work together to defeat the WRE. They remain quite friendly with each other and rarely go to war. So in the cases where a tribe captures a roman city, the AI also passes them over to continue attacking the WRE. I guess this happens because of diplomatic bonuses for having mutual enemies. But realistically... the Picts would have had much more to fear from the Saxons then the WRE in the 5th century. I don't think they offically ally, but they have some sort of diplomatic reason to not fight each other. The Visigoths and Ostrogoths fought on opposing sides of the WRE's hunnic wars.... The bro-like relationship of the barbarians I think this needs to change too.

This guy nailed it all.

**marceror** · February 13, 2016, 07:26 PM

There a lot of good points being made here, but it's not just about the Celts and the Germanics, etc. buddying up. This also applies to factions like the WRE and Hispania... and pretty much anything run by the AI. I've seen the WRE take back lots of regions previously captured from them by Hispania (usually with some help from me), but those occupied by Western Roman rebels will be left to their own devices. So yeah, the AI is doing what is being said here. It's making all efforts to harass the WRE, in particular. Which I guess results in not focusing on rebels. But the WRE themselves also do the same thing. I believe that some code needs to be written for AI faction across the board to recognize a region when it is captured by a rebel. Currently those regions are not taken into consideration at all. Regions held by more fleshed out factions, even separatists, at least seem to register with the AI.

**Yudishtira** · February 15, 2016, 01:11 PM

Not quite on topic perhaps, but given that the thread title has both "rebel" and "invisible" in it, have you noticed that "... Rebels" factions do not appear on the Strategic Overview? I realize you're talking mostly about rebel emergent factions (as opposed to out-n-out rebels who never become a faction for diplomacy purposes), but perhaps emergent rebel factions have an invisibility in campaign AI that's analogous to this (rather annoying grrr) invisibility on the overview.

**Tyso3** · February 16, 2016, 03:59 PM

On Rome 2, the opposite happens the AI will cross your borders with a full stack army, reguardless of wether they are your freind, ally or neutral (or enemy) just to destroy a 3 stack rebel army that is next your captial.

I am guessing, like so many other rome 2 'bug fixes' they simply deleted the code for it.

So is it worse now? Hell yes.

**Pater_Patriae** · February 16, 2016, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by marceror

There a lot of good points being made here, but it's not just about the Celts and the Germanics, etc. buddying up. This also applies to factions like the WRE and Hispania... and pretty much anything run by the AI. I've seen the WRE take back lots of regions previously captured from them by Hispania (usually with some help from me), but those occupied by Western Roman rebels will be left to their own devices. So yeah, the AI is doing what is being said here. It's making all efforts to harass the WRE, in particular. Which I guess results in not focusing on rebels. But the WRE themselves also do the same thing. I believe that some code needs to be written for AI faction across the board to recognize a region when it is captured by a rebel. Currently those regions are not taken into consideration at all. Regions held by more fleshed out factions, even separatists, at least seem to register with the AI.

You are right, this is endemic to ATW in general. It's just easiest to notice with the barbarians. I have noticed it in AoC as well. Early in game the pagan germans sweep into the Franks and cause some of their regions (including their capital) to rebel. Even long after the Franks recover, then do not bother to take the rebel cities back, even though they are right next to their land.

**PraetorinBlue** · February 16, 2016, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tyso3

I am guessing, like so many other rome 2 'bug fixes' they simply deleted the code for it.

So is it worse now? Hell yes.

We've been joking about this since ATW's launch. So many of the badly needed fixes R2 were left out of ATW even though the game is a glorified expansion of R2.

I think in order of importance:
~the last patch needs to reshuffle the AI's aggressiveness.
~Fix the ignoring rebels thing
~Rework Diplomacy to make is less Roman vs the world
~rethink Imperium? (that might be a tall task for a patch)