The Massalia Question

[Sandraker]

Yo, I was wondering about Massalia and how it'll be implemented in this mod. As the entire nature of a whole faction is a pretty big subject, I thought I'd make a dedicated thread rather than post in the Suggestions one.

The first question is, will it be playable? As interesting an entitiy as Massalia is, there is a counter to seeing it as a major faction in that according to Wikipedia, its population at its height in antiquity was just 6000, although who says it didn't have the potential to grow more?

The second is the question of the campaign map. The Attila map has no Marseille on it, with the closest city being a non-port. This begs the question how Massalia will function without a port if the campaign map can't be modified in any way.

The third is, how will the culture and roster work? In historical terms I have no idea what was going on there, especially how the Greeks were interacting with the local Celts and Ligurians and how much they intermixed. As to how it translates to the gameplay, I've seen mods where they're basically a fully Greek faction with little local influence to almost a 50/50 cultural split. No idea what's more historically accurate, instinct tells me probably the former. That said, the idea of a faction with a mixed roster is pretty cool.
My thought is that as the concept of Massalia as any sort of military power already is ahistorical, you could go on a speculative limb, with a culture and military that evolves over time to reflect the intermingling of peoples, starting as a Greek Enclave and developing into a sort of Celto-Hellenic empire.

In general the development could go like so:

Step 1: Separate cultures
You have distinct units that are clearly Hellenic or local. The Hellenic units consist of Massalian citizenry while the locals are mostly just commoners from the surrounding area who for some reason or another find themselves fighting on the Massalian side, probably for money. The majority of the army should consist of Hellenes fighting in their regular style.

Step 2: Subjugation
This represents Massalian control over a significant amount of land. We now have an elite core of Massalian Citizens who fight in regular Hellenic ways, but with the occasional piece of Celtic gear mixed in. In addition, auxiliaries drawn from the conquered Gauls and whatnot. The auxiliaries could fight either as low-mid tier Hellenic units (Gallic Phalangites?!) as well as in a more traditional style. At this point most of the faction's population is made up of conquered people, and so the bulk of the troops should be so as well. Perhaps the Massalians now need a standing army to hold their territory, so like the Romans they recruit their subjects in exchange for some form of citizenship?

Step 3: Fusion
Let's say a LOT of Gauls/Ligurians are now involved in this whole Massalia thing. Many have learned Greek, somehow attained citizenship, and so on. Meanwhile on the Greek side of things, they've come to accept the nuances of cleaning oneself with soap, perhaps they've even admitted that trousers can be useful when it's cold. While the Gauls try to be more like the Greek elites, their sheer numbers would inevitably influence the overall culture in some ways as well. Militarily speaking, this means we now get Celto-Hellenic units across the board. Celtic swords of various lengths are now the predominate sidearm. Montefortino, Port and Agen helmets are ubiquitous.
So now we have a thorough mix of different doctrines. In many ways this would essentially be very much like a very extreme version of the way the Thureos was adopted by the Hellenes. You have so-called Thorakitai who are basically equipped like Gallic nobles. You've got highly aggressive supposedly Gallic cavalry, but for added chargeyness they've got Xyston lances. Essentially the result is this crazy hodgepodge of equipment and fighting styles that likely never happened historically but could still remain somewhat believable.


So yeah. That's my idea of a playable Massalia. What do you guys think?

[Maetharin]

I think Masallia was never a nation of fighters, IMO they were similar to Carthage, using others to fight their wars.
IMO they should have a purely greek roster, and I think they lacked the cultural impulses other hellenic nations underwent, so only aspis and spears for the suckers ;P

Piracy and seamanship would be their mainstay, whenever their city was threatened by land forces, they would employ mercenaries rather than their own men.
Since the city was walled, and trade more profitable than war, why would the Masallians engage in territorial warfare unless forced too?

Had there been a network of greek colonies around the northern cost of the mediterranean as extensive as the phoenician one, I can imagine Masallia taking up a similar role as Carthage did.
Their mercenaries would have been similar, with more Italian, Ligurian and even Venetian mercenaries given their spatial proximity to Italia and Gallia Cisalpina.

As for cultural mixture, I´m rather interested how little cultural mixing happened between the Polis of Asia Minor and the natives.
The same applies to Sicily. The poleis Akragas and Gela nearly held the whole Island, and still the Greeks stayed rather greek.
If anything happened, then a hellenisation of the natives, but very little in the other direction.

It might have been the xenophobic tendencies of the greeks and macedons, regarding anything not hellenic as barbarian and inferior to their own culture.
Unless they benefitted from it, like from the advanced architectural knowledge of the Persians and Egyptians, but even then all they built had a distinct "greek" character.

Best regards

[Willhelm123]

I believe they controlled the surrounding area though. Rome had to get permission to build a road through their lands, the Via Domitia, and the road is about 40km from Massalia, which means they must have at least controlled a radius of land that large beyond the city, and surely that area had natives living in it too, under Massalian rule.

[Maetharin]

That may be so, but these would have been a subject people, just like the natives of Asia Minor, Persia, Egypt and so on.
Also this land might not have been part of the city´s own territory, but part of its zone of influence.

Additionally, I´m intrigued how the devs will handle greek subject polis.
Masallia f.e. was inside Gallia Transalpina, but still considered politically independent from Rome.
Smyrna was part of Asia Minor, but still was able to give Publius Rutilius Rufus its citizenship when he had lost the Roman one.

Are there any mechanics attila has that could be used in that direction?

[Sandraker]

That may be so, but these would have been a subject people, just like the natives of Asia Minor, Persia, Egypt and so on.
Also this land might not have been part of the city´s own territory, but part of its zone of influence.

This is kinda what I base the whole thing on
As Massalia is just a tiny city with almost no military manpower, it would need to rely on native military support to expand as a Total War faction does. Perhaps they'd initially be mercenaries, or drawn from allied tribes or just philhellenes or whatever. Later on you get more subject people. Through their service and sheer numbers some would inevitably gain some status and in the city, and from that you'd get the native influence.
Overall still very much a Greek faction although with some transalpine flavor added in to spice things up.
In addition, the idea of Greeks adopting foreign military gear and tactics is far from odd - just look at the thureos which already is derived from Gallic shields.

[Maetharin]

As I wrote, I don't think they would have waged their wars with their citizens.
So unless forced to by circumstances they wouldn't reform their citizen forces.
And there were no nations around them which posed any threat to the city itself.
To starve the city you'd need a fleet and their walls were greek, so impenetrable unless one had dedicated siege equipment.
And unlike Athens they never had too big a population, so pestilence wasn't any problem either.

Military innovation needs a demand to appear,
why would you change something which does its job adequatly?

On the mainland the greeks introduced the Thureos because they saw its superiority in the rocky terrain of greece.

[Sandraker]

You make some good points.

The problem of Massalia as a TW faction is that it didn't have the population to be any sort of military power, and that it was inherently a fairly safe place for the time. To make Massalia function at all as a faction you need to add some sort of speculative element.
Hence the only way to explain Massalia somehow conquering something would be through non-Greek troops of some sort. However on the side of tactics and doctrine, I think that having them stick with just classical hoplite type citizen units might not be the way to go either. I think that with the ahistorical degree of militarism comes more speculation - who said that if they find themselves in some sort of war, they wouldn't immediately look for foreign military advisers? For example, they might recruit troops from the local tribes and whatnot, but then drill them in a more Hellenistic fashion.

There's also the question of how Greek Massalia really was. I have no idea about how accurate Europa Barbarorum is, but their flavor text for Massalian hoplites describes this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Massalia is a city in an interesting position. It is a Greek city, but with a substantial Celtic population and relations with neighboring Celtic tribes. Its soldiers have adjusted themselves with some Celtic gear to make them of greater use in a close melee if the phalanx is abandonned. They make use of a superior Celtic longsword in close quarters, able to handle themselves better in such situations compared to others with lesser weapons.

Historically, Massalia was home to a substantial Greco-Celt population who were attracted to the temple of Herakles there. The inhabitants of Massalia remained largely Greek in culture, but trading, intermarrying, and fighting with nearby Celtic tribes led to crossovers in the equipment carried by each side. The soldiers of Massalia, for example, began using Celtic-style longswords and occassionally other pieces of equipment. They fought, otherwise, in a manner more typical of Hellenic soldiers.

There are also some other units in that mod that allude to a mix of Greek and Celtic culture, such as the Celtohellenic infantry.
If this stuff is true, it's a pretty decent basis to make their armies have units where there is a mix of tactics and equipment. How far you escalate this mix would be the question then.

[Maetharin]

They could have celtic warriors as regular troops in the manner like carthage, which could be further evolved into hellenised versions through reforms.
I´m pretty sure that´s what DeI already has actually^^

[ABH2]

EBII is really filling in the gaps there, I'd guess. They are looking at the murky and basic information we have and filling in the spaces with information which is pretty much necessary at times when dealing with ancient history. No one really knows. There's no way to know. There's really just very little material with regards to Massilia period. There is nothing on the composition of their ground forces in the historical record. They did raise a force against Hannibal when he was trying to cross the Rhone. That's really the only example in my head right now of them putting a force into the field, though it is likely they had to do so on occasion to deal with the Gauls. There is no info given on what the force consisted of.

In general, I'm going to guess it's a pretty safe bet they relied on mercenaries and 'allies.' In the 2nd century, they more or less depended on Rome whose early incursions into Transalpine Gaul came as a result of their request for assistance against the Gauls in the region.

In other contexts, as mentioned above, we do see a surprising degree of Hellenic culture surviving in outposts such as this. Some of the colonies in the Black Sea region being one example as well as the Hellenistic settlements in the East. But there's never much to go on with regards to the composition of the military.

[Willhelm123]

I'd be interested to know where EB2 gets the evidence the claims about Massalian warfare. What is the evidence that they started using celtic longswords. Archaeological?

[VINC.XXIII]

I'd be interested to know where EB2 gets the evidence the claims about Massalian warfare. What is the evidence that they started using celtic longswords. Archaeological?

There is no, simply. I think its an obscure extrapolation from XIXth century thesis according which Massalia and Celts had strong mutual influence. While it would be possible to find celtic swords, chain-mails and oval shields around Massalia, its far-stretched to attribute it to Massaliotes adopting celtic equipements. The supposed battlefieds were generally very close(around 10/20 kilometers) to greek cities, Massalians weren't able to perform long expedition far away in the hinterland.


PS: for those interested, I took pictures when I was in Marseille History museum, there you have some stuff related to warfare, but no story of celtic hoplites or greek hoplites with chain-mails...

http://www.mediafire.com/download/a3..._lHistoire.rar

[Maetharin]

I´d actually go backwards and hellenise the subject gauls, that´s what usually happened with greek culture.
It happened on Sicily, in parts of thracia, Illyrium, Asia Minor and Egypt, why wouldn´t it happen here?

We could see to the Galatians to see how a celtic people retained their culture even when surrounded by hellenic culture.
But IMO this only strengthens my point. They always remained independent domestically,
whereas Masillia was a big power compared to smaller tribes around their territory.
Their mercenary forces would stay celtic, whereas their subjects would become hellenised.

Well that´s just my opinion about it
Best regards

[Sandraker]

I´d actually go backwards and hellenise the subject gauls, that´s what usually happened with greek culture.
It happened on Sicily, in parts of thracia, Illyrium, Asia Minor and Egypt, why wouldn´t it happen here?

You're right, there's certainly more evidence for philhellenic Celts than there is for Celt-loving Greeks either way. I think the majority of the military (following "reforms" that turn the army from a Greek city guard to a military made up mostly of the much more numerous conquered subjects) should consist of Hellenized natives who fight in a mixed fashion.

Alternatively, should Massilia be a faction? Specifically, Massilia was a city and an important one, but it really didn't do the things that total war factions tend to do. Why not have 'Massilia' as a wonder that gives oddles of dosh and local greek cultural influence, and an AoR that gives celto-hellenic infantry, and replace it with another faction?

It's true, Massalia was never a military power and the population was fairly small even for the standards of the time. Really what made it significant was not the town itself, but the influence it had on the surrounding area due to its nature as a trade hub.
Massalia as a wonder of sorts does make sense, especially considering there's no Massalia on the Attila grand campaign map.

[Alfonzo over Innsmouths]

Alternatively, should Massilia be a faction? Specifically, Massilia was a city and an important one, but it really didn't do the things that total war factions tend to do. Why not have 'Massilia' as a wonder that gives oddles of dosh and local greek cultural influence, and an AoR that gives celto-hellenic infantry, and replace it with another faction?

[Petellius]

I guess we could, there is a celtic tribe called the Volsci or something around that area I think (name could be completely wrong as I've forgotten) but I know it contested Hannibal's crossing of a river before he reached the alps, could use them.

[Willhelm123]

I think there would be a lot of complaints if we didn't include Massalia. They are a cool city state in a unique location for Greeks. Besides, once the campaign starts you enter alternate history and anything could happen.

[ABH2]

Thanks for the post, VINC. Always like when you stop by. Always an informative post. And thanks again for the Italian names. I'll make sure you are credited.

In terms of not including Massilia, I've considered it. There is a Gallic horde faction in the area (the Salluvii). I'm still going to try some things to get a port on the settlement there. It will be a bit off. If I can't do the port I may just ditch them, but I'd prefer to have both.

[Argive Strategos]

I think massalia should be there, it had a certain degree of influence in the region. Yes, it's population was small, but I don't think there was a tribe in the region more powerful than them. Massalia built the city of Nice in France. Nice in Greek means victory, which means that the people of Massalia won some kind of victory against a tribe in the region. As said above, they controlled up to 40 km outside the city at least. Massalia has also founded its own colonies, meaning it had considerable power. The massalian navy was famous, but our of the 6000 people, how many we're in the forces and how many of those people were in the navy, which means that there were either more than 6000 people, or that their influence was large enough to get levied celts to serve in the navies, giving their forces considerable size.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Massalia should be like Sparta in a sense when it comes to playstyle. As ABH has mentioned, there's very little of this fabled Greek city that we know about. It has to be a difficult camapign because although they may have Greek Hoplites, they have the expanding influence of Rome, the warring Gallic Tribes to the North and the East of France, it makes a perfect campaign to playthrough. What we don't want is steam rolling because that when its gets boring. The Gallic AI has to be set at great with trade, defensive over its relations with Massalia. Massalia's strengths will come from heavy hoplite infantry and swordsmen. We do know that the Romans did besiege Massila, so there must have been something. Its strong navy will need some research. The city would have to be massive like Carthage though.

Just my thoughts.

[Maetharin]

It would be awesome if occupation options could be tied to certain factors, but we can only change these by culture...
I´ve no idea how cultures work in atilla, but the devs need to create factions from scratch anyway.
If it worked similar to Rome 2, one could use faction culture and religion to our benefit.

I made a submod once, which took away the ability to occupy for barbarian factions, they could only sack, liberate and subjugate.
(Additionally they could confederate, I had some pretty interesting playthroughs with this, some gallic confederations surrounded by vassals were a pretty tough nut to crack)

AFAIK culture only shows itself in the buildings and units allowed, whereas what is called culture ingame is actually religion.
So it was theorethically possible to have a barbarian faction looking completely hellenic in roster and buildings.

So I propose a complete segregation of culture and visual representation ingame.
This way we could have historically prominent factions which nontheless never conquered any land be unable to conquer any territory without influencing culturally similar factions.

Concerning Massilia IMO Triumph of Rome nailed it, they should be a sort of greek carthage.
They would be able to dominate their immediate surroundings, and from there draw a increasingly hellenised celtic levy, further supplemented by mercenary gallic and italian forces.
With this increasing reliance on natives and mercenaries, I think their own hoplite forces would have degenerated much like they did in Syracuse and Carthage.

Best regards