*Gaming Staff Presents* Tag Team Tournament Championship

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

What about my previous suggestion? If Breton is allowed to have only 1 general max in each stack, would that solve the problem? It might also put an end to Mith's endless campaigns about what he thinks is unfair about his faction and overpowered about others

[Mithridate]

What about my previous suggestion? If Breton is allowed to have only 1 general max in each stack, would that solve the problem? It might also put an end to Mith's endless campaigns about what he thinks is unfair about his faction and overpowered about others

Hey, things become apparent as one plays and especially so for things affecting oneself^^
Bias is certainly relevant of course which is why it is important that we all be honest and open.



It's all about balance, not power and unfairness

As to the suggestion, it does counteract fairly but not solve it. He can just use multiple forces and still get in a large number of BG to a fight, it should also only apply tho his BG with 2hp. Imo it serves as a solution, my vote and opinion remains unchanged.

[joerock22]

You will still be the strongest faction to offset a worse position, a position that will remain mostly unchanged but you will have less starting advantages to capitalize on - most whom you did not capitalize on anyway as far as I can tell.

Pardon me then for not playing up to your level. I am a mere mortal, after all.

Empire having less starting advantages means that it's position is worse. Any advantage IMO is nullified by the massive strategic disadvantage of those exposed western provinces, and the fact that every single faction will likely attack us. Here is the biggest disadvantage of all: my team is adjacent to ALL FOUR enemy factions. Your two teams are adjacent to ONLY MY TEAM. To fight each other you either need to conquer some of my lands, or sail across an ocean.

To be clear, you had me fairly convinced that Empire's early advantages compensated it for its poor strategic position. I thought the mod was as well balanced as could be expected. But if you start taking away those early advantages, then the mod becomes imbalanced in your favor again.

It seems I am outnumbered on this, however. Chieftain's solution is a fair one. Or even a limit of 2 bodyguards, or a rule where Breton can use no more bodyguards than the enemy army it's fighting. I just don't want to see a stack of 2-HP bodyguards coming at me. That would be awful.

[Mithridate]

Pardon me then for not playing up to your level. I am a mere mortal, after all.

Nothing showing what I think you have done and/or should have done being better. We've got differing opinions and thoughts that's all.

I did not mean to be belittling, me fighting myself would only be a mostly pointless bloodbath btw.

Empire having less starting advantages means that it's position is worse. Any advantage IMO is nullified by the massive strategic disadvantage of those exposed western provinces, and the fact that every single faction will likely attack us. Here is the biggest disadvantage of all: my team is adjacent to ALL FOUR enemy factions. Your two teams are adjacent to ONLY MY TEAM. To fight each other you either need to conquer some of my lands, or sail across an ocean.

To be clear, you had me fairly convinced that Empire's early advantages compensated it for its poor strategic position. I thought the mod was as well balanced as could be expected. But if you start taking away those early advantages, then the mod becomes imbalanced in your favor again.

A case of our reasoning being the same, but not our conclusions for the most part. Logic right?

The sea is a major obstacle to capitalize upon but don't mistake it to be anything more than that. The more we talk about these things, the more gobbled up the strategizing and diplomacy get of whom their should be little to none of. Glad I was convincing btw, I've found my faction to be far weaker than it was and than I thought it to be and like you are sure about your faction I'm sure - I seriously doubt anything but a little of that to be bias for either of us.

Work calls and I was getting to rambling anyway

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

It's hard to compare perfect balance as you said. Hence I can not compare starting position, income, exposure and military.

You could say our military's the strongest, yet it is predominantly infantry while your faction truly excels in cavalry and movement bonus. So what is better? Really, if there truly is 1 better player/team, the little things in the mod shouldn't matter. So do we have more starting advantages? Do we have a 'better military'. No, I think it is quite well balanced and each and every one of us has to find out the strengths and weaknesses of its faction and of the other factions. Isn't that what this final is about? A new mod where 3 teams can prove themselves as best hotseaters.

[joerock22]

So after all that, to answer Dr. Mac's question: yes, it seems we are continuing.

[Dux]

Yes, it seems most of us agree to continue. All units with 2hp are banned and should be disbanded. Factions affected will receive some compensation for this.

But I will add the rule that Breton can only have 1 2hp bodyguard unit per army and it will be not allowed to attack a target with more than 2 single 2hp bg units (so no swarming with 1 unit armies of bgs).

[Dr Mac]

Yes, it seems most of us agree to continue. All units with 2hp are banned and should be disbanded. Factions affected will receive some compensation for this.

But I will add the rule that Breton can only have 1 2hp bodyguard unit per army and it will be not allowed to attack a target with more than 2 single 2hp bg units (so no swarming with 1 unit armies of bgs).

Aye, will be done shortly. But could I request an exact quantity? Sometimes a general + 2/3 units can make all the difference in a battle. I ofc will try not to attack with 4/5 generals on their own as that would be a wee bit silly.

Sorry chaps, had this save done a while ago. Bloody xcom being too good and distracting me!

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

So the archers of Septim, which were they again? What kind of compensation will there be?

[Mithridate]

I've heard nothing and too would very much like to know. Afaik the two heavy legionary archers in the empire cap are the ones relevant, the two cav units for Breton have already been disbanded afaik.

It's hard to compare perfect balance as you said. Hence I can not compare starting position, income, exposure and military.

You could say our military's the strongest, yet it is predominantly infantry while your faction truly excels in cavalry and movement bonus. So what is better? Really, if there truly is 1 better player/team, the little things in the mod shouldn't matter. So do we have more starting advantages? Do we have a 'better military'. No, I think it is quite well balanced and each and every one of us has to find out the strengths and weaknesses of its faction and of the other factions. Isn't that what this final is about? A new mod where 3 teams can prove themselves as best hotseaters.

This is soooo right on the money with some disagreement as to the balance of this mod, as I still have a few griefs ^^

But I can but agree so much with every other word, many seem to think what we want when we seek balance is for all to be the same - no! The most fun, the best is when we have differences and even inbalances that balance each other out or can be made to. So we do not have complete equality and carbon copies, but different factions and settings calling for varying playstyles and strategies that may or may not be as "valid" as each other particularly for varying situations^^ IE OP is bad, inbalance is not necessarily.

Finding these strenghts and weaknesses and using them is what it's all about, not just being able to use our resources "better"

There is a "completely balanced" mod btw, I really don't want to play it

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

Regrettably I have not heard from my mate for more than 24 hours now. It is nothing like him, so I'm sure he will be back soon.

There are things we need to finish discussing, hence I will wait another 24 hours for him to show up, for I'm participating in the Tag Team Tournament rather than Solo Tournament. If I do not hear from him within 24 hours, I will carry on anyways.

On behalf of team TATW we apologize for being late 2 times in a row. Joe and me are quite punctual usually, but let me tell you this:

"The Lords of the Rings are never late, nor are they early, they play their turns precisely when they mean to"​

[joerock22]

Yeah, sorry, my fault for going MIA for 36 hours. We still probably could have gotten both turns done on time, but we need to send the Septim save to Dux so he can replace our heavy imperial archers (2 hp) with units we can actually use. That will be done within an hour.

[Korpskog]

Anyways, I sure hope that being late on several occasions does not go unpunished in the long run. 3 days should be sufficient not matter time-difference or IRL issues, if the game is important for you you make time for this

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

Fortunately Joerock returned on time yesterday. If not for the needed admin attention (replacing Septim units), we would actually have played our turns within the 3 day time limit. Exceeding this time limit right now is completely out of our control. We sent the Septim save to the admins yesterday and at this moment we still await an answer.

[Korpskog]

Im just pshyched (spelling?) To play :p dont worry about what I say. Leaves me more time finishing the damned wtw 1.0 descr_strat

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

I don't have a lot of time tomorrow and tuesday, so Joe and me decided to play without the admin attention. This will have to wait until turn 3 then.

----------

The Empire strikes first in this hotseat! Rimmen of Khajiit is taken and some scouts of Redguard are slaughtered. "One does not simply walk into The Empire!"

Good luck to all participants and may the best Dwarf win!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

Southern Alliance up!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

[Korpskog]

Lunar up: https://mega.nz/#!oVFD3BZL!dZchpuN27c1pE2HyF8hF3LfGU6TaOHvJFZG_o4WwuvE

[Dr Mac]

Hey guys, Mith and I may need 3-4 hours extension as I've been too busy this week to chat. We had a brief discussion in the early hours of this morning, will be done tonight though.

[joerock22]

Just to let you guys know, Chieftain and I have some days this week where we can't play. We were hoping to take a look at the save and start planning this weekend, but obviously that didn't happen. Now we're into the workweek where neither of us have a ton of time.

Personally I don't mind players taking extra time. This is just a heads up that the other team's delay may cause our team to be delayed also.

[Korpskog]

Personally I Think it is screwed, at least when you wait with mentioning until you are allready to late and people are expecting a turn any second. It is nothing but disrespectful and disgraceful.. that's just me... personally....