Which melee units are seemingly worthless?

[bananas]

Just wondering if there was a Do Not Train list of units that have been observed to underperform. It seems any units with halberd, two handed axe 'grip' occasionally block in melee but not much else (is this by design or just another bug?) such as the Varagian guard. They appear to be rated as more powerful than the units they usually lose to like regular line infantry, spearmen.

As the HRE I had a unit of halberdiers charge a unit of peasant archers thinking my heavily armored infantry would wipe them out. They proceeded to stand grimacing at the unarmored archers while being stabbed to death. Only two or three men were actually fighting despite the fact that half the unit was in close contact. The archers on the other hand were swinging away at a much faster rate and they would have easily won had the rest of their army not routed. The halberdiers lost around thirty and killed ten. I'm guessing the peasant archers' effectiveness against my unit was in part due to them being treated as swordsmen in the melee rather than an archers who really shouldn't be fighting? It's something I've noticed regarding the melees in general, the various unit stats really have no bearing unless you're auto-calcing every battle, all that seems to matter is if your guys are actually going to fight back.

[Lord Phoenix]

Swiss Pikes for Papal States, which has 12 attack and 12 defence. Don't know why they take away Papal Guard as your city upgrades, which has 12 attack and 17 defence.

[John I Tzimisces]

Swiss Pikes for Papal States, which has 12 attack and 12 defence. Don't know why they take away Papal Guard as your city upgrades, which has 12 attack and 17 defence.

I don't know if that really has any meaning...the stats that is...aren't Janissary Heavy Infantry basically the best in the game (right next to my varangians obviously ), but have stats that are "inferior" to many other units?

[Over and Out....]

It seems to me like the stats don't mean a lot. And some units really strt doing like they should when they get their armors upgraded. I think that is kinda adding to the immersion. Maybe some men that are great killers but don't have so much defence beging to really work when they get more advanced armor so they can concentrate on killing. Dunno, just seems like there are factors that CA doesn't show us. Like all the cavalry for england has pretty much same stats but the ones you get later on somehow seem to work better. Or maybe that's just me.

-Topi-

[SPARTAN VI]

Swiss Pikes for Papal States, which has 12 attack and 12 defence. Don't know why they take away Papal Guard as your city upgrades, which has 12 attack and 17 defence.

Just like when triarii vanish after the marius reforms.

[Slaists]

It seems, town militia is a completely useless unit: they constantly lose to peasants for some weird reason (it seems, the shield does not come into melee calculation) and are more expensive.

Spear milita loses to peasants too, but, at least, they have anti-cavalry bonus.

[Legion12]

don't train peasants cuz they'll retreat if they lose just 1 man.:hmmm:

[scottn72]

don't train peasants cuz they'll retreat if they lose just 1 man.:hmmm:

I've had a lot of success with peasants, especially in the early stages of the game, 1500 peasants and a few well trained units can be very effective.

The one unit I've had problems with so far is the English Billmen, I'm sure they should do better than they are, but maybe I'm just using them wrong.

[Janvs Maximvs]

I've had a lot of success with peasants, especially in the early stages of the game, 1500 peasants and a few well trained units can be very effective.

The one unit I've had problems with so far is the English Billmen, I'm sure they should do better than they are, but maybe I'm just using them wrong.

I agree about the billmen, I always set the extra unit of dismounted english knights and billmen to take care of the rear attack by the french in agincourt and BOTH of them get completely destroyed. However, when I used the other unit to take care of one of the dismounted feudal knights attacking through the stakes to get to the archers, they prevailed.

[jimbob]

For the english, Dismounted feudal knights are basically pointless. They're almost the same unit as armoured swordsmen, just with one point different.

They've got 1 less defence than armoured swordsmen, and cost 40 florins less.... however their support cost is 225 florins compared to the 150 of an armoured swordsman. Sure, they're 40 florins cheaper than an armoured swordsman, but only if they're wiped out on the turn they are built. The moment you end a turn, they're gonna cost more than an armoured swordsmen.

[savage_rabbit]

For the english, Dismounted feudal knights are basically pointless. They're almost the same unit as armoured swordsmen, just with one point different.

They've got 1 less defence than armoured swordsmen, and cost 40 florins less.... however their support cost is 225 florins compared to the 150 of an armoured swordsman. Sure, they're 40 florins cheaper than an armoured swordsman, but only if they're wiped out on the turn they are built. The moment you end a turn, they're gonna cost more than an armoured swordsmen.

Lord, that's dumb. Did CA not playtest their own game?

[jimbob]

Lord, that's dumb. Did CA not playtest their own game?

I think we both know the answer to that one

[the_mango55]

Lord, that's dumb. Did CA not playtest their own game?

I think it was intentional.

England is supposed to have a strong infantry to make up for their somewhat weak cavalry.

[ProudNerd]

don't train peasants cuz they'll retreat if they lose just 1 man.:hmmm:

no they are far more effective this time around they can hold a line fore a awhile and with a few proper units to form a foot hold and a strong general they can be very useful. The worst are English billmen they truly suck this time around after how awesome they were before.

[k_161]

well with the Unit cohesion bug and how stats don't mean anything i can't Really say :p.

[the_mango55]

Muslim peasants are pretty terrible.

Billmen are way too weak, and too cheap. The armored billmen need to be better and more expensive.

Currently due to an animation bug two handed pole weapons (poleax, 2 handed axe, billhook) don't hit cavalry when they are fighting, so that means if you use billmen, norse axemen, varangians, some dismounted knights (French, English, and Portugese), etc. against any kind of cavalry you will get stomped.

Town militia of course.

Militia cavalry is pretty bad.

[John I Tzimisces]

Muslim peasants are pretty terrible.

Billmen are way too weak, and too cheap. The armored billmen need to be better and more expensive.

Currently due to an animation bug two handed pole weapons (poleax, 2 handed axe, billhook) don't hit cavalry when they are fighting, so that means if you use billmen, norse axemen, varangians, some dismounted knights (French, English, and Portugese), etc. against any kind of cavalry you will get stomped.

Town militia of course.

Militia cavalry is pretty bad.

That explains how my varangians got butchered by broken lances without striking back once. Ok. Wasn't just me losing my mind, lol. Just a bug, phew.

[Shaun]

Dont bother with town milita, spear militia have the same upkeep and get a bonus vs cav.
Avoid sergeant spearmen if you are the Italians as well, more expensive and worse stats!

[ProudNerd]

Which would have taken about 10mins of play testing to find.

[lawngnome]

Yeah, JHI don't have the best stats, but are easily the best heavy infantry unit in the game. They are terrifying to behold. Never noticed the cav bug with them, either.