Welfare reform

[Farnan]

The status of welfare is such that it needs vital reform. The problem is not that people are being helped, rather they are becoming dependent on it. A saying goes, "You do not go on welfare, you are born into it." That is a vital problem that leads to rises in crime and keeps families from rising above it. Do you agree with me? If so how would you reform it?

[boofhead]

Well, in Australia that has been the case for decades, but PM John Howard, with majorities in both the Senate and House of Representatives has been able to push through tough new welfare programs based on the idea of "Mutual Obligation", the idea being that society is doing you a favour therefore you must do it a favour.

After a certain time period unemployed (about 3 months) you must undertake volunteer work, work for the dole, attend job-search provider offices for 3hrs/day, undertake training or find a bloody job. The new rules are also very strict and breaches are applied for the slightest non-attendance of anything required - up to 8 weeks non-payment etc.

It seems to be working, though not everyone likes it. I even know people who have chosen to live on a below-welfare income just so they do not have to deal with all the rules and regulations and requirements and general beaurocratic nonsense. I myself was unemployed for a short time after 17yrs paying taxes and was made to feel like I was a malingering bludger who just wanted to live off the sweat of other's backs.

My response? I managed without the beaurocratic BS.

Unemployment (and hence welfare) is at its lowest point in Aussie for 30yrs.

[LoZz]

farnan, which system, the uk or the usa one?

[Erik]

Yes, please be more specific and explain how exactly it's failing.

[Farnan]

US system primarily. What is happening is that many people, though not all, are born into families on welfare. As they grow up and their parents get the checks, they are given little incentive to get off of welfare, especially seeing as that is what they have known all their lives. Many times they're parents don't pust them either as their parents have done the same thing. Since welfare has been dealing with everything, without requiring people to put out real work (technically you have to be looking for a job, but that is easy to fake) many don't see a reason to try to rise above. This destruction of ambition destroys people and may be one of the reasons the crime rate is so high in those areas.

[LoZz]

we have the same issues with people living on benifit for no reason other then lazyness as well

[Farnan]

I'd favor something like the Australian system that boofhead described. America has hundreds of nationial parks that need to be cleaned, so city beautification projects, and there are plenty of Boondogles that could be done to make people on welfare, who are able to work, do something productive that benefits society...

Welfare in itself is not bad, but when it incourages dependency, that is where there is a problem.

[ErikinWest]

Welfare creates a vicious cycle of dependency creating drones that feed off of the state without any power. IMO if gov't gives out welfare the users should have to repay the money that they are using.

Erik

[Sidmen]

IMO if gov't gives out welfare the users should have to repay the money that they are using.

^^That would be interesting to see, since then the tax that funds welfare could be abolished and the middle class would have a big jump in thier spending money. However, because of the extremely low income most people achieve when they get off welfare, it would be dumb to expect them to be able to pay anything back.

What I'd like to see is more foodstamp and rent/utility payment programs and less of just giving them cash to deal with expences. Because you won't stay on welfare long if you don't have any spending money...

On the flip side I've been on welfare. My dad paid over 200k into the welfare program durring his lifetime and I don't feel a bit bad for taking 30-40k back untill I get a job. (I'm 18 y/o)

[LoZz]

some people do need welfare, some people would be dead otherwize, yes some people abuse the system but isnt it worth it for the greater good it gives? if something ever happens to you, its their for you aswell.

[Farnan]

some people do need welfare, some people would be dead otherwize, yes some people abuse the system but isnt it worth it for the greater good it gives? if something ever happens to you, its their for you aswell.

I'm not saying that welfare is bad, but something needs to be done to encourage people to get off and not become overly dependent on Big Brother to help...

[LoZz]

I'm not saying that welfare is bad, but something needs to be done to encourage people to get off and not become overly dependent on Big Brother to help...

well their is, people who work earn more money, but it depends what you want in life, to sit and do nothing, or money

i want both >.<

[Tom Paine]

I'm not saying that welfare is bad, but something needs to be done to encourage people to get off and not become overly dependent on Big Brother to help...

Yes, you need encouragement to get off it; so make it a subsistence amount, for unemployment benefit. But I would point out that even at the height of the American '20s boom there was still about 4.2% unemployment; a little unemployment is better than full employment for a nation as it allows things such as expansion of industry and flexibility of industry... As I say, encourage them to get off it but don;'t remove it and remember that its healthy to have some on it.

[Last Roman]

I like what Australia has, or something like what FDR put in, creating lots of jobs for the unemployed like cleaning up parks and such.

[Sidmen]

Exactly, You should get your unemployment benifits for 30 days, and if you havn't found a job by then you get to do public works for minimum wage. When you find a job you get to leave the public works project without 2-weeks notice.

The problem that I'm seeing is that people are having problems finding jobs that they think they're worth in time. I sure don't want to work at mc donalds, but I would if they didn't expect me to give them a month of notice before I can leave for a better job. So you just skip by the low paying jobs untill you get a good job, which may not happen for a few months.

Just like me, For the last three months I've been unemployed, and now I'm all but hired onto a well paying and stable company. If I was working at a minimum wage job I might get passed by for someone who can start right away.

[Lee1026]

I'm not saying that welfare is bad, but something needs to be done to encourage people to get off and not become overly dependent on Big Brother to help...

Here is my fix:
1. Elimate welfare except in cases of physical disability such that they literally can not work. And in cases where a single parent have to deal with multiple children.
2. If the said single parent have another children after she is already on welfare, she would be considered a bad parent and a danger to her own children. Steps would be taken such that she would no longer have to raise children. (similar to what we do to people that abuse their children.

That should do the trick.

[Sidmen]

Actually, that would just increase crime rates and put more strain on our child protection services.

[Lee1026]

How would it increase crime? You think that people who are not willing to put in the time to hold down a job are willing to spend more effert being criminals?

[Tom Paine]

Lee, as I said, some unemployment is healthy and neccessary. Furthermore do we have no duty of care t those we are better off than? I cannot believe that.

[Sidmen]

There will always be around 4-5% unemployment, because there simply arn't enough jobs to go around..

That coupled with the fact that you need a living adress to get any kind of job (which you won't have if your basicly told "**** off and get a job") means that there will only be 1 option left.