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  1. #1
    AlexiosThe1st's Avatar Civis
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    Default Spears

    Will units using spears at long last attain the preeminence they deserve? It irks me to no end in video games when units using spears are the paper to the sword units' scissors. By what line of logic does this follow? In almost every context one might find on a medieval battlefield, a spear is going to be vastly more effective (against targets with moderate to little armor) than a sword is.

    Will spears get the developer loving they deserve?

  2. #2
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Spears

    Pikes perhaps, polearms also, but spears?
    No.

    Spears are the least effective melee weapon there is, people are just glorifying them because people like debunking stuff for some reason.

    There is a very good reason why soldiers around the world preferred the sword/axe above the spear as their melee weapon, the only reason spears were so prominent is their cheap price.

    A spear requires space, is unwieldly, and can only thrust.

    The moments two lines of infantry clash and the fighting becomes close and thick, the sword will prevail, because it is far more versatile.

    Otherwise the Romans would have used the spear and swords would have not started replacing the spear in European armies the moment they became cheap enough for common soldiers to afford them.

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    Beregond's Avatar TWC boomer
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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    Spears are the least effective melee weapon there is, people are just glorifying them because people like debunking stuff for some reason.

    There is a very good reason why soldiers around the world preferred the sword/axe above the spear as their melee weapon, the only reason spears were so prominent is their cheap price.

    A spear requires space, is unwieldly, and can only thrust.

    The moments two lines of infantry clash and the fighting becomes close and thick, the sword will prevail, because it is far more versatile.

    Otherwise the Romans would have used the spear and swords would have not started replacing the spear in European armies the moment they became cheap enough for common soldiers to afford them.
    I kinda disagree with this. if used right, spear is superior to swords in many ways and occasions. Just as swords can be superior in other. So I wouldn't just outright call spear a cheap and disposable weapon. Ancient Greeks used spear as their main weapon for centuries; Samurai, despite having a cult of swords, used yari, naginata etc with deadly efficiency and there were many fighting techniques designed to counter sword-wielding enemies.

    There are many more examples, these weapons are just different, though yes, spear is cheaper to make

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    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Beregond View Post
    I kinda disagree with this. if used right, spear is superior to swords in many ways and occasions.
    How?

    Its only superiority is reach, which is completely nullified if the enemy closes in.

    In all other aspects of fighting, especially with a shield, other weapons are superior to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beregond View Post
    Ancient Greeks used spear as their main weapon for centuries
    True, but they also had swords for close combat.
    Also, swords are described even by them as causing far graver wounds and being far more effective at mutilating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beregond View Post
    Samurai, despite having a cult of swords, used yari, naginata etc with deadly efficiency and there were many fighting techniques designed to counter sword-wielding enemies.
    The naginata is obviously a polearm and the yari is more of a swordstaff than a spear.

    Even with that, the issue is the expense of making a katana that did not exactly allow the Japanese to arm literally tens of thousands of their soldiers with it.


    If it was superior as a weapon, nobody in their right mind would spend so much money and resources into far more expensive swords and polearms.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    Pikes perhaps, polearms also, but spears?
    No.

    Spears are the least effective melee weapon there is, people are just glorifying them because people like debunking stuff for some reason.

    There is a very good reason why soldiers around the world preferred the sword/axe above the spear as their melee weapon, the only reason spears were so prominent is their cheap price.

    A spear requires space, is unwieldly, and can only thrust.

    The moments two lines of infantry clash and the fighting becomes close and thick, the sword will prevail, because it is far more versatile.

    Otherwise the Romans would have used the spear and swords would have not started replacing the spear in European armies the moment they became cheap enough for common soldiers to afford them.
    The bottom line is if a experienced Spearmen and a experienced Swordsmen both with equal armor fought than either one could win. Tactics are more important than what kind of weapon you hold.

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    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Spears

    Well, spears did very well have their role and importance on the battlefield. Spears are not an all around weapon, useful against everyone, and neither were swords, axes, maces or any other weapon. Polaxes are also spears with and axe and / or hammer attached to them, and spears on their turn are just sticks with something pointy , to put it in very simplified terms. Obviously the major advantage of a spear is its reach.
    In a one on one situation, I´d even say a spear would be superior to a sword, due to its reach, as long as that distance is kept, but it all depends on the person wielding the weapon.
    You can also block sword hits with a spear (not that you should, since it would damage the shaft to some extent ) as you cannot just chop through it with a sword, as depicted in some Hollywood movies. Well, in those movies you can also cut through maille and even plate armor .... I wonder, why even wear armor then ?!
    The spear is not just a cheap weapon, that would ditched instantly if one could get his hands on a sword. Men carried , if they could afford it, a spear or polearm and also a sword, and used them according to the situation, whether in a group formation or fighting individually, and so on. The sword or axe was actually a side arm.
    In total war games all spearmen fight like the ancient hoplites . In reality, if you carry a big shield you either hold your shield and your spear and try to keep the enemy at bay forming a wall, or ditch your shield and use both hands to wield the spear. And yes, in formations, the sword would probably be a better choice.
    Anyway, in game terms, whether we like it or not, we have to use the rock-paper-scissors approach to some extent as real life circumstances cannot be depicted well.
    Spearmen would probably be weaker against swordsmen, but good quality spearmen should not be utterly destroyed by any swordsmen unit. Since swordsmen are going to be more expensive than spearmen, they have to make up for their price with their usefullness. We can have spearmen, who occasionally draw their sword or axe, but the game still uses the values given for the primary melee weapon, which for a spearman would be ofc the spear.
    Balancing the units and stats however will be a major part of this mod, once we get to that point.

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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltd. View Post
    Well, spears did very well have their role and importance on the battlefield.
    Yes, because they were very cost effective, being very cheap to make.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ltd. View Post
    Polaxes are also spears with and axe and / or hammer attached to them
    No, a poleaxe is not a spear, they are both polearms.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ltd. View Post
    Obviously the major advantage of a spear is its reach.
    Which is nullified by a shield, after which it becomes a disadvantage once the fighting becomes arms length close.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ltd. View Post
    In a one on one situation, I´d even say a spear would be superior to a sword, due to its reach, as long as that distance is kept, but it all depends on the person wielding the weapon.
    It depends, an aggressive swordsman can dominate a spearman the moment he gets in close, also...shield.


    You are right in the other statements, spears were very useful, just not superior by default.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Spears

    Spears were used in warfare because they've always been the most economical weapon, cheap to manufacture, and relatively to pick up and use.

    The reason elite units outside of antiquity started using swords was simply because they were more effective. Why would the most trained and wealthiest soldiers not choose to use the most effective weapon? If spears were more effective no other weapon would have ever seen much use because it would have been too perfect in every aspect.

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    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by damien007 View Post
    Spears were used in warfare because they've always been the most economical weapon, cheap to manufacture, and relatively to pick up and use.

    The reason elite units outside of antiquity started using swords was simply because they were more effective. Why would the most trained and wealthiest soldiers not choose to use the most effective weapon? If spears were more effective no other weapon would have ever seen much use because it would have been too perfect in every aspect.

    But following this logic, no other weapon would have ever been invented, since the sword was such a great weapon. All weapons had their role and use, otherwise everyone woulds have used swords always and in all situations. It all depends on the circumstances.
    People say spears were so cheap to make. How is that ? If you want your spear to be any useful , you need a lot of metal for the spearhead as well, and you need to work on that spearshaft as well. It´s not like you go into the woods, pick up a branch , stick something pointy on it and you have a spear. Now, noone disputes that a chieftain´s or a knight´s sword is far more expensive and elaborate than a peasant´s spear, but not all swords were such pieces of art and not all spears were junk and dirt cheap to make.
    Also , there existed so many types of swords, made for defeating different types of armor, that it is hard to stick to any generalizations. And I don´t think a shield would nullify the reach of a spear. With proper technique the shield is actually rendered useless, or can even become cumbersome and obscuring your view (in case of larger shields). You won´t carry a pavise for example if you intend to fight with a sword.
    Regarding the game, one swordsmen unit should be able to defeat an opposing spearmen unit, to make swordsmen viable for recruitment. But don´t put your swordsmen in front of a charging knight, cause he might defeat you with a ... spear (well, a longer version of it

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltd. View Post
    People say spears were so cheap to make. How is that ? If you want your spear to be any useful , you need a lot of metal for the spearhead as well, and you need to work on that spearshaft as well.
    Still much cheaper.

    Spearheads were usually quite small.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltd. View Post
    And I don´t think a shield would nullify the reach of a spear. With proper technique the shield is actually rendered useless, or can even become cumbersome and obscuring your view (in case of larger shields).
    That is utterly wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    The vikings considered a spear more worth than two swords in the shield wall. (Source "Vikinger I Krig" Norwegian publication)
    Is it from a primary source or did they just make it up?

    How dangerous swords were in comparison, shows us the contemporary Frankish law that views swords so dangerous, that it forbids its gifting or sale to non-Frankish-noble members of society;

    "It has been enacted that no bishop or abbot or abbess, or any rector or guardian of a church, shall presume without our permission to give or sell a sword to any man outside, except only to his own vassals." - "Capitulare Bononiense". Chapter 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    Spear was the go-to weapon of the vast majority of infantry historically before 1212
    Because mass producing them before that date was not a viable option.

    The moment the sword prices go down 90% through the 13th century, all the sudden, all manuscripts start showing everyone armed with swords...I can only wonder why.


    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    Shields pretty much disappeared entirely in the period covered by the mod in western Europe except among militia and specialist siege units.
    No, shields were no longer used by heavy armored men, common soldiers wore shields extensively up until the 16th century.
    Last edited by +Marius+; January 27, 2016 at 07:24 AM.

  11. #11
    Påsan's Avatar Hva i helvete?
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    Default Re: Spears

    Common soldiers were generally armed with some form of polearm to my understanding.

    Is it from a primary source or did they just make it up?
    Its from the "kings mirror" an medieval norwegian instructional manual intended for young lords.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konungs_skuggsj%C3%A1

    Here's the whole thing, personally I find it extremely interesting, especially the parts about foreign lands and the parts about combat.

    https://archive.org/stream/kingsmirr...uuoft_djvu.txt

    Here's the specific passage

    kings mirror If you are fighting on foot in a land battle and are
    placed at the point of a wedge-shaped column,* it is
    very important to watch the closed shield line in the
    first onset, lest it become disarranged or broken. Take
    heed never to bind the front edge of your shield under
    that of another, f You must also be specially careful,
    when in the battle line, never to throw your spear, un-
    less you have two, for in battle array on land one spear
    is more effective than two swords. But if the fight is on
    shipboard, select two spears which are not to be thrown,
    one with a shaft long enough to reach easily from ship



    THE KING'S MIRROR 215

    to ship and one with a shorter shaft, which you will find
    particularly serviceable when you try to board the
    enemy's ship. Various kinds of darts should be kept on
    ships, both heavy javelins and lighter ones. Try to
    strike your opponent's shield with a heavy javelin, and
    if the shield glides aside, attack him with a light javelin,
    unless you are able to reach him with a long-shafted
    spear. Fight on sea as on land with an even temper and
    with proper strokes only; and never waste your weapons
    by hurling them to no purpose.


    Spoiler for Most of the passages dealing with medieval combat, sieges and training
    X~ Now if your comrades are planning to go from the / king's apartments to some drinkin^Jioiit or other merry-
    making^ and you, too, [have the king's permission to ?
    seek diversion^Jyou should jgrejer_the forms of amuse- x
    ment which I shall now point out to you. If you are so-
    journing where horses may be ridden and you have your
    own horse, put on heavy armor and, mounting your
    horse, {train ^yourself in the art of sitting on horseback (/
    _in the firmest and most handsome manner jTrain your-->
    self to press the foot firmly into the stirrup; keep your
    leg stiff and the heel a little lower than the toes, except
    when you have to guard against thrusts from the front;




    THE KING'S MIRROR



    AC
    / ut




    and practice sitting firmly with the thighs pressed close.
    Cover your breast and limbs carefully with a curved
    shield. Train your left hand to grasp firmly the bridle
    and the grip of the shield, and your right hand to direct
    the spear-thrust so that all your bodily strength will
    support it. Train your good steed to veer about when
    in full gallop; keep him clean and in good condition;
    keep him shod firmly and well, and provide him with a
    strong and handsome harness.

    But if you are in a borough or some such place_where
    horses cannot be used for recreation, you should take
    up this form of amusement: go to your chambers and
    put on heavy armor; next look up some fellow hench-
    man (he may be a native or an alien) who likes to drill
    with you and whom you know to be well trained to
    fight behind a shield or a buckler. Always bring heavy
    armor to this exercise, either chain-mail or a thick gam-
    ison,* and carry a heavy sword and a weighty shield
    or buckler in your hand. [in this game you should strive
    to learn suitable thrusts and such counterstrokes JLS_ are
    good, necessary, and convenientJLearn precisely how
    to cover yourself with the shield, so that you may be
    able to guard well when you have to deal with a foeman.
    If you feel that it is important to be well trained in these
    activities, go through the exercise twice a day, if it is
    convenient; but let no day pass, except holidays, with-
    out practicing this drill at least once;[for it is counted

    * The gambison (panzari) was a form of defensive armor made of cloth
    padded and quilted. It is described on page 217 as being made " of soft linen
    thoroughly blackened." Usually it was worn under the coat of mail, but it
    could also be worn outside. See Annalerfor nordisk Oldkyndighed, 1867, 74 ff.
    (Blom.); Falk, Altnordische Waffenkunde, 181-182.



    THE KING'S MIRROR 213

    proper for all kingsmen to master this art and, more- 7
    bver, it must be mastered if it is to be of servicejlf the -5
    drill tires you and makes you thirsty, drink a little now
    and then, enough to quench your thirst; but while the
    game is on, be careful not to drink till you are drunk or
    even merry.

    If you should like to try a variety of drills and pas-
    times, there are certain sports that one can take up out
    of doors, if that is thought more diverting. For one
    thing, you may have a pole prepared, somewhat heavier
    than a spear shaft, and put up a mark some distance
    away for a target; with these you can determine how far
    and how accurately you can throw a spear and do it effec- J cc /
    tively. It is also counted rare sport and pastime to take N ~^f> i
    one's bow and go with other men to practice archery. /
    Another pleasant and useful diversion is to practice
    throwing with a sling both for distance and for accuracy,
    and with a staff sling * as well as with a hand sling, and
    to practice throwing stone missiles. Formerly the cus-
    tom was for all who wished to become expert in such
    arts and thoroughly proficient in war and chivalry to /
    train both hands alike to the use of weapons. Strive
    after the same skill, if you find yourself gifted for it, /
    inasmuch as those who are trained in that way are the /
    most perfect in these activities and the most dangerous /
    to their enemies.

    You should abhor and avoid manslaying in every
    form except as a lawful punishment or in common war-
    fare. But in ordinary warfare on the lawful command

    * The staff sling was a sling fastened to the end of a stick; it was an earlier
    form which was not used much in the thirteenth century.




    214 THE KING'S MIRROR

    of your chief, you need to shun manslaying no more
    than any other deed which you know to be right and
    good. Show courage and bravery in battle; fight with
    proper and effective blows, such as you have already
    learned, as if in the best of humor, though filled with
    noble wrath. Never fight with feigned strokes, needless
    thrusts, or uncertain shots like a frightened man. Heed
    these things well that you may be able to match your
    opponent's skill in fighting. Be resolute in combat but
    not hot-headed and least of all boastful. Always re-
    member that there may be those who can give good
    testimony in your behalf: but never praise vonr own
    deeds, lest after a time it should come to piass that jrou
    are pursued for the slaughter of men whose death js^
    \ rated a great loss and the revenge is directed toward

    you by your ownjords.

    If you are fighting on foot in a land battle and are
    placed at the point of a wedge-shaped column,* it is
    very important to watch the closed shield line in the
    first onset, lest it become disarranged or broken. Take
    heed never to bind the front edge of your shield under
    that of another, f You must also be specially careful,
    when in the battle line, never to throw your spear, un-
    less you have two, for in battle array on land one spear
    is more effective than two swords. But if the fight is on
    shipboard, select two spears which are not to be thrown,
    one with a shaft long enough to reach easily from ship



    baped column (jtfc^yOaif , perhaps so named from a fancied
    ; to a boar's head) was a common form of battle array among the
    Northern peoples as wd as among the early Germans generally.
    t As the shield was bora on the kft arm, the front edge would be the right



    THE KING'S MIRROR 215

    to ship and one with a shorter shaft, which you will find
    particularly serviceable when you try to board the
    enemy's ship. Various kinds of darts should be kept on
    ships, both heavy javelins and lighter ones. Try to
    strike your opponent's shield with a heavy javelin, and
    if the shield glides aside, attack him with a light javelin,
    unless you are able to reach him with a long-shafted
    spear. Fight on sea as on land with an even temper and
    with proper strokes only; and never waste_yoiir weapons
    by hurling them to no purpose.

    Weapons of many sorts may be used to advantage on
    shipboard, which one has no occasion to use on land,
    except in a fortress or castle. Longhandled scythes * and
    long-shafted broadaxes,t " war-beams " and staff slings,
    darts, { and missiles of every sort are serviceable on
    ships. Crossbows and longbows are useful as well as all
    other forms of shooting weapons; but coal and sulphur
    are, however, the most effective munitions of all that I
    have named. Caltrops ; cast in lead and good halberds ^
    are also effective weapons on shipboard. A tower joined



    * These scythes were apparently used to catch and hold the 1

    perhaps also to cot the ropes on the ship. See the Soro etfition,

    t The broadai (tfajfux) had the blade extended backward somewhat like

    d^ffaUicri.tlM^mthefcfercMetheafaMmMdbJnHt

    See Falk, Ataordudte Wa/emtmmde, 108-110.

    I Skfpti/UUa: a dart of some sort with a cord attached.

    Coal and suphur seem to have been used chiefly to fire the enemy's ship.

    || Caltrops were instruments provided with iron prongs and were usually

    scattered where the enemy's horsemen were likely to pass, in the hope of

    manning the horses. It is evident that they were also used in naval warfare,

    the purpose being to maim the men on the enemy's deck. See the Soro edition.



    f Aigwr. The translation is doubtful but it seems dear that some kind of
    spear useful for striking as wcfl as for thrusting is meant. See Falk,
    dixke Wtfemtnie, 81-OL



    216 THE KING'S MIRROR

    to the mast * will be serviceable along with these and
    many other defenses, as is also a beam cloven into four
    parts and set with prongs of hard steel, f which is drawn
    up against the mast. A " prow-boar" J with an ironclad
    snout is also useful in naval battles. But it is well for
    men to be carefully trained in handling these before
    they have to use them; for one knows neither the time
    nor the hour when he shall have to make use of any
    particular kind of weapons. But take good heed to col-
    lect as many types of weapons as possible, while you
    still have no need of them; for it is always a distinction
    to have good weapons, and, furthermore, they are a
    good possession in times of necessity when one has to
    use them. For a ship's defense the following arrange-
    ment is necessary: it should be fortified strongly with
    beams and logs built up into a high rampart, through
    which there should be four openings, each so large and
    wide that one or two men in full armor can leap through
    them; but outside and along the rampart on both sides
    of the ship there should he laid a level walk of planks
    to stand upon. This breastwork must be firmly and

    * Probably some sort of a cage placed at the top or near the top of the mast
    from which men with bows and slings could fight to better advantage. See
    Aarboger for nordisk Oldkyndighed, 1872, 242; Falk, Altnordische Waffen-
    kunde, 197.

    t Only one end of the beam was cloven in this way. See the Sorb edition, 394-
    395. The beam was apparently fastened to the mast and used to crush the
    sides of the enemy's ship in much the same way as the ram was used against
    a castle wall. See Talk, Altnordische Waffenkunde, 199.
    J The prow-boar (rdftrgoltr) was not a beak but apparently some device
    fastened to the prow which served much the same purpose, namely to run
    down and sink an opposing ship. See the Soro edition, 395-396; Falk, Altnor-
    dische Waffenkunde, 198-199.

    See the Soro edition, 397-399; Falk, Altnordische Waffenkunde, 196. This
    rampart was built of logs and planks and raised on the gunwales. Sometimes



    THE KING'S MIRROR

    carefully braced so that it cannot be shaken though
    one leaps violently upon it. Wide shields and chain mail
    of every sort are good defensive weapons on shipboard;
    the chief protection, however, is the gambison made of
    soft linen thoroughly blackened, good helmets, and low
    caps of steel. There are many other weapons that can
    be used in naval fights, but it seems needless to discuss
    more than those which I have now enumerated.

    XXXVIII

    WEAPONS FOR OFFENSE AND DEFENSE

    Son. Since we now have before us a discussion which
    teaches chiefly how a man must prepare himself to meet
    his enemies in attack and defense, it seems to me that
    it would be well to say something about how one has
    to fight on land, on horse or on foot, and in attacking
    and defending castles. Therefore, if you feel disposed
    to say anything about such matters, I shall be glad to
    listen.

    Father. The man who is to fight on horseback needs
    to make sure, as we have already stated, that he is
    thoroughly trained in all the arts of mounted warfare.
    For his horse he will need to provide this equipment: *
    he must keep him carefully and firmly shod; he must
    also make sure that the saddle is strong, made with high
    bows, and provided with strong girths and other saddle-
    it seems to have been placed along the entire length of the ship, but often,
    perhaps, only where the ship was lowest. Inside it was braced with strong
    beams. The plank walk on the outside projected over the edge of the ship and
    was no doubt in part intended to make it difficult for the enemy to board it.
    * On the equipment of the horse in medieval warfare, see Aarbogerfor nordisk
    Oldkyndighed, 1867, 90-97.



    218 THE KING'S MIRROR

    gear, including a durable surcingle across the middle
    and a breast strap in front.* The horse should be pro-
    tected in such a way both in front of the saddle and be-
    hind it that he will not be exposed to weapons, spear
    thrust or stroke, or any other form of attack. He should
    also have a good shabrack f made like a gambison of
    soft and thoroughly blackened linen cloth, for this is a
    good protection against all kinds of weapons. It may be
    decorated as one likes, and over the shabrack there
    should be a good harness of mail. With this equipment
    every part of the horse should be covered, head, loins,
    breast, belly, and the entire beast, so that no man, even if
    on foot, shall be able to reach him with deadly weapons.
    The horse should have a strong bridle, one that can be
    gripped firmly and used to rein him in or throw him when
    necessary. Over the bridle and about the entire head of
    the horse and around the neck back to the saddle, there
    should be a harness made like a gambison of firm linen
    cloth, so that no man shall be able to take away the
    bridle or the horse by stealth. t

    * In the thirteenth century the saddle was made with high bows before and
    behind so as to provide a firmer seat for the rider. The surcingle was a girth
    drawn over the saddle; the breast strap served to keep the saddle from slip-
    ping backwards. Aarboger for nor disk Oldkyndighed, 91.
    f Kovertur, from medieval French couverture. But the couverture was not a
    covering worn underneath, the mail; it was probably the mail itself or an
    outer covering for the horse. See Falk, Altnordische Waffenkunde, 191.
    J Falk believes that this description is in some respects inaccurate. No such
    elaborate equipment could have been used in the North where cavalry was
    not an important part of the host in the thirteenth century. He also doubts
    that an equipment just like the one described was in use anywhere in Europe
    at the time. Ibid., 190-191. The medieval couverture was not placed beneath
    the covering of mail as the Speculum Regale states; and Falk can see no
    reason why a gambison placed beneath the mail should be ornamented.
    It seems clear that the author is somewhat confused as to these various
    coverings.



    THE KING'S MIRROR

    The rider himself should be equipped in this wise:
    he should wear good soft breeches made of soft and
    thoroughly blackened linen cloth, which should reach
    up to the belt; outside these, good mail hose* which
    should come up high enough to be girded on with a
    double strap; over these he must have good trousers
    made of linen cloth of the sort that I have already
    described ; finally, over these he should have good knee-
    pieces made of thick iron and rivets hard as steel. f Above
    and next to the body he should wear a soft gambison,
    which need not come lower than to the middle of the
    thigh. Over this he must have a strong breastplate {
    made of good iron covering the body from the nipples to
    the trousers belt ; outside this, a well-made hauberk and
    over the hauberk a firm gambison made in the manner
    which I have already described but without sleeves. He
    must have a dirk and two swords, one girded on and
    another hanging from the pommel of the saddle. On his
    head he must have a dependable helmet made of good
    steel and provided with a visor. || He must also have a
    strong, thick shield fastened to a durable shoulder belt
    and, in addition, a good sharp spear with a firm shaft
    and pointed with fine steel. Now it seems needless to

    * The mail hose were made of chain mail. Aarboger for nordisk Oldkyndighed,

    1867, 73-74.

    f The kneepieces> or genouilleres were pieces of armor worn to protect the

    knees.

    t Blom thinks that the breastplate was a new thing in the thirteenth century

    (ibid., 76), but Falk believes that it was used quite generally (Altnordische

    Wqffenkunde, 182).

    The dirk (brynknifr) was probably a poniard-like weapon used to pierce the

    chain mail at the joints. Falk, Altnordische Waffenkunde, 124.

    1 1 The helmet with the visor appears in the illustrations of the closing years of

    the twelfth century; the earlier helmet was a steel cap with a nose guard.

    Aarboger for nordisk Oldkyndighed, 83-84.



    220 THE KING'S MIRROR

    speak further about the equipment of men who fight
    on horseback; there are, however, other weapons which
    a mounted warrior may use, if he wishes; among these
    are the " horn bow " * and the weaker crossbow, which
    a man can easily draw even when on horseback, and
    certain other weapons, too, if he should want them.

    XXXIX

    MILITARY ENGINES

    Son. Inasmuch as you seem to think that you have
    described most of the weapons which are convenient to
    have in naval warfare or in fighting on horseback, I will
    now ask you to say something about those which you
    think are most effective in besieging or defending castles.

    Father. All the weapons that we have just discussed
    as useful on ships or on horseback can also be used in
    attacking and defending castles; but there are many
    other kinds. If one is to attack a castle with the weapons
    which I have enumerated, he will also have need of
    trebuckets : f a few powerful ones with which to throw
    large rocks against stone walls to determine whether
    they are able to resist such violent blows, and weaker
    trebuckets for throwing missiles over the walls to de-
    molish the houses within the castle. But if one is unable
    to break down or shatter a stone wall with trebuckets,

    * Little seems to be known about the hornbow. Captain Blom finds it men-
    tioned in the Latin sources as balista cornea or balista cum cornu. Aarbogerfor
    nordisk Oldkyndighed, 1867, 100-101. Falk believes that it was a bow which
    was reinforced on the inner side with horn. Altnordische Waffenkunde, 91-92.
    f The trebucket (French trebuchef) was a siege engine which came into use in
    the twelfth century; it was worked by counterpoises. For a description see
    Oman, Art of War, 143-144; Aarboger for nordisk Oldkyndighed, 1867, 103-
    104; Falk, Altnordische Waffenkunde, 193-194.



    THE KING'S MIRROR

    he will have to try another engine, namely the iron-
    headed ram,* for very few stone walls can withstand
    its attack. If this engine fails to batter down or shake
    the wall, it may be advisable to set the cat f to work.
    A tower raised on wheels J is useful in besieging castles,
    if it is constructed so that it rises above the wall which
    is to be stormed, even though the difference in height
    be only seven ells; but the higher it is, the more effective
    it will be in attacking another tower. Scaling ladders on
    wheels which may be moved backward and forward are
    also useful for this purpose, if they are boarded up un-
    derneath and have good ropes on both sides. And we
    may say briefly about this craft, that in besieging castles
    use will be found for all sorts of military engines. But
    whoever wishes to join in this must be sure that he
    knows precisely even to the very hour when he shall
    have need for each device.

    Those who have to defend a castle may also make use
    of these weapons which I have now enumerated and
    many more: trebuckets both large and small, hand
    slings and staff slings. They will find crossbows and
    other bows, too, very effective, as well as every other

    * The ram was a massive beam used to batter down walls; it was an in-
    heritance from antiquity and was much in use. See Oman, Art of War, 132;
    Aarboger for nordisk Oldkyndighed, 1867, 104; Falk, Altnordische Waffen-
    kunde, 198.

    f Grafsvin. Falk translates this with " badger " and seems to believe that it
    was a shelter on wheels under which the attackers might work in compara-
    tive safety. Altnordische Waffenkunde, 196. It is more likely, however, that a
    "cat" is meant. The cat was a long pointed pole used to loosen the stones in
    a wall and thus to make a breach. It is also called a " sow " and the Old Norse
    term grafsvin, " digging boar," was evidently an attempt to translate the
    Latin term scrofa or sus, " hog " or " sow." For a description of the cat, see
    Oman, Art of War, 132.
    t On the subject of the movable tower see Oman, Art of War, 134-135, 549.



    222 THE KING'S MIRROR

    type of shooting weapons, such as spears and javelins
    both light and heavy. But to resist the trebuckets,
    the cat, and the engine called the ram, it is well to
    strengthen the entire stone wall on the inside with
    large oaken timbers; though if earth and clay are plen-
    tiful, these materials had better be used. Those who
    have to defend castles are also in the habit of making
    curtains of large oak boughs, three or even five deep,
    to cover the entire wall; * and the curtain should be
    thoroughly plastered with good sticky clay. To defeat
    the attacks of the ram, men have sometimes filled large
    bags with hay or straw and lowered them with light
    iron chains in front of the ram where it sought to pierce
    the wall. It sometimes happens that the shots fall so
    rapidly upon a fortress that the defenders are unable
    to remain at the battlements; it is then advisable to
    hang out brattices made of light planks and built high
    enough to reach two ells above the openings in the para-
    pet and three ells below them. They should be wide
    enough to enable the men to fight with any sort of
    weapons between the parapet and the brattice wall, and
    they should be hung from slender beams in such a way
    that they may be readily drawn in and hung out again
    later, as one may wish.f

    The " hedgehog " { will be found an effective device

    * These curtains were evidently placed on the outer side of the wall,
    f This translation of hengirigskarft is based on Blom's interpretation (Aar-
    bogerfor nordisk Oldkyndighed, 1867, 105-106, note). The brattices were pro-
    jecting galleries built along the top of the wall and were in use before it be-
    came customary to build stone parapets. Cf. Oman, Art of War, 534.
    t The hedgehog (ericius) in common use was a form of the cheval defrise and
    was laid on the earth to impede a hostile advance. -I know of no other men-
    tion of the device (igulkottr) described above.



    THE KING'S MIRROR 223

    in defending a castle. It is made of large, heavy beams
    armed along the ridge with a brush of pointed oak nails ;
    it is hung outside the parapet to be dropped on anyone
    who comes too near the wall. Turnpikes made of large
    heavy logs armed with sharp teeth of hard oak may be
    raised on end near the battlements and kept ready to
    be dropped upon those who approach the castle. An-
    other good device is the " briar," * which is made of
    good iron and has curved thorns as hard as steel with
    a barb on every thorn; and the chain, from which it
    hangs, as high up as a man can reach must be made of
    spiked links, so that it can be neither held nor hewn;
    higher up any kind of rope that seems suitable may be
    used, only, it must be firm and strong. This briar is
    thrown down among the enemy in the hope of catching
    one or more of them and then it is pulled up again. A
    " running wheel " f is also a good weapon for those who
    defend castles: it is made of two millstones with an
    axle of tough oak joining them. Planks sloping down-
    ward are laid out through the openings in the wall; the
    wheel is rolled out upon these and then down upon the
    enemy.

    A " shot wagon " {is also a good device. This is made
    like any other wagon with two or four wheels as one
    likes and is intended to carry a load of stones, hot or

    * Captain Blom is disposed to look on the brynklungr as an imaginary device

    (Aarboger for nordisk Oldkyndighed, 1867, 106) but Falk finds that some such

    instrument was in use in Italy as early as the tenth century (Altnordische

    Waffenkunde, 199-200).

    t Devices somewhat similar to the " running wheel " seem to have been used

    in medieval warfare, but of this particular form no other mention has been

    found. See Falk, Altnordische Waffenkunde, 200.

    % Ibid. The " shot wagon " is not mentioned elsewhere.




    THE KING'S MIRROR

    cold as one may prefer. It must also be provided with
    two firm and strong chains, one on each side, which can
    be depended on to check the wagon even where it has
    a long track to run upon. It is meant to run on planks
    set with a downward slope, but one must be careful to
    keep the wheels from skidding off the planks. When the
    chains check the speed, the wagon shoots its load out
    upon the men below. The more uneven the stones are,
    some large and some small, the more effective the load
    will be. Canny men, who are set to defend a wall and
    wish to throw rocks down upon the attacking line or
    upon the penthouse, make these rocks of clay with
    pebbles, slingstones, and other hard stones placed in-
    side. The clay is burned hard enough on the outside to
    endure the flight while the load is being thrown; but as
    soon as the rocks fall they break into fragments and
    consequently cannot be hurled back again. To break
    down stone walls, however, large, hard rocks are re-
    quired. Similarly, when one hurls missiles from a stone
    fortress against an opposing wooden tower or upon the
    axletrees which support siege engines, towers, scaling
    ladders, cats, or any other engine on wheels, the larger
    and harder the rocks that are used, the more effective
    they will be.

    Boiling water, molten glass, and molten lead are also
    useful in defending walls.* But if a cat or any other
    covered engine which cannot be damaged by hot water
    is being pushed toward a castle, it is a good plan, if the
    engine is lower than the walls, to provide beams care-

    * See the Soro edition, 424-425, where the editor cites a number of references
    to the use of fire in defensive warfare; these are nearly all drawn from the



    THE KING'S MIRROR

    fully shod with iron underneath and in addition armed
    with large, sharp, red-hot plowshares. These are to be
    thrown down upon the wooden engine in which the
    plowshares are likely to stick fast, while the beams may
    be hoisted up again. This attack should be followed up
    with pitch, sulphur, or boiling tar.*

    Mines dug in the neighborhood of a castle are also
    an excellent protection; the deeper and narrower they
    are, the better it is; and where men are shoving mounted
    engines toward the walls, it were well if there were many
    mines. All mines should have a number of small open-
    ings, which must be covered so as not to be visible on the
    surface. They should be filled with fuel of the most in-
    flammable sort, peat or anything else that burns readily.
    When a castle is attacked at night either from wooden
    towers or with scaling ladders or any other engine on
    wheels, the defenders should steal out and fire the
    mines, f

    Now if it should happen that the enemy's stones
    come over the battlements with such violence that the
    men cannot remain in the open to defend the wall, it is
    a good plan to set up strong posts cut from thick oak
    and to lay large and tough cross beams upon these,
    then to roof the whole over with firm oak timbers, and
    finally to cover the roofing with a layer of earth not less
    than three or four ells in depth, upon which the rocks
    may be allowed to drop.J In like manner the attack of

    * Evidently the purpose would be to crush the engine with the beam, to set it

    on fire with the hot plowshares, and to put the assailants to flight with the

    pitch, sulphur, or tar; these would also feed the flames.

    t On the subject of mines see Oman, Art of War, 549-550.

    J The posts were apparently placed on top of the wall, the purpose being to

    raise the wall to a greater height as well as to furnish shelter for the defenders.




    226 THE KING'S MIRROR

    a wooden tower that is moving toward a castle may be
    foiled by setting up strong, firm posts rising consider-
    ably higher than the attacking tower. But a more effec-
    tive contrivance than all the engines that I have now
    described is a stooping shield-giant which breathes forth
    flame and fire.* And now we shall close our account of
    the engines that are useful in defending castle walls with
    the reminder that every sort of weapon with which one
    can shoot, hurl, hew, or thrust, and every kind that
    can be used in attack or defense may be brought into service.
    Last edited by Påsan; January 27, 2016 at 08:19 AM.

  12. #12
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    Common soldiers were generally armed with some form of polearm to my understanding.
    Often yes, but there were still plenty of those with shields as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    Here's the specific passage
    Interesting to say the least.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Spears

    The cost of the weapons isn't the only explanation since most spear armed troops used a sidearm anyway and it often was a sword (or a large knife)...

    What is great with swords is that they are versatiles and so, and it's often overlooked, they are a great sidearm and very efficient tool of selfdefense in your eveyrday life.
    People, even knights and wariors/soldiers, passed more time in peace than in war. And even in war, passed more time in their day to day life than on the battlefield.

    It's their potential deadliness in peacetime that made them the subject of laws restraining those who could wear them, not their deadliness in the field of battle.

    So the usefullness of a sword outside the field of battle shouldn't be underestimated in regard to what made them so desirable and prized.

    It's a good versatile sidearm, efficient and strong enough to compete with most other dedicated weapons without being too impractical to carry around.

    Spears were universal for two reasons, yes, they are cheaper, a cheap militia can own at least spears even if swords are too costly, but that's not the only reason, because as i said, many warriors used both weapons nonetheless.

    But, on the other hand, if swords were so great, why use both then ?

    Because spears have another great advantage in warfare, they are kinda versatile too (though too impractical to be caried in your everyday life and so less likely to be used in the streets by "civilians" (in a very loose sense)), they can be thrown and have superior reach for exemple.

    In closed formations on a field of battle, reach is no small advantage.
    Sure you can close with a big shield and fight with swords (like the romans did) but it's still an advantage and if you got both spear and sword, why not using it ?

    Polearms and pikes are great too, the former against heavily armored opponents as well as more lightly ones (hooks, hammer, piercing implements etc), the latter have even more reach.

    The sword was usually just a side arm to a spear or lance and very rarely the main weapon (Romans, but even them used javelins, including a heavy javelins that could be used as short spears if needed, and they reintroduced spears in large number in the late empire).
    Last edited by Keyser; January 27, 2016 at 08:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post

    That is utterly wrong.
    I´m not sure if it was understood correctly what I meant: I meant the proper fighting technique of an attacker who has a spear , but let´s say he ditched the shield versus someone holding a shield and sword, for instance.

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    Default Re: Spears

    Remember that proper shield is far more lethal weapon than any sword or spear when it comes to combat when two guys have at least some armour ;D
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    Default Re: Spears

    The vikings considered a spear more worth than two swords in the shield wall. (Source "Vikinger I Krig" Norwegian publication)


    Spear was the go-to weapon of the vast majority of infantry historically before 1212, with the Romans as the only ones I can think of that relied on the sword instead as a main army weapon. The Romans Legions were not typical in any way though.

    By this mods start, that had begun to change in Europe. Heavy armor became more common among the ranks and spears which had dominated dismounted warfare was not enough any more, so polearms (Which is not the same as a spear, its a pole-weapon but not a polearm) evolved to better counter the increased amount of heavy armor and especially heavy cavalry. First to halberds and then pikes. Shields pretty much disappeared entirely in the period covered by the mod in western Europe except among militia and specialist siege units.

    Which is also the reasons why special armor breaking weapons like goddendag (lulz name) and poleaxes developed. Bills and Glaives for the peasantry and Poleaxes being the preferred weapon for dismounted knights which actually had advanced fighting style connected to it. I'd actually like to see a lot more poleaxes among the late-era knight units.
    Last edited by Påsan; January 27, 2016 at 06:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    The vikings considered a spear more worth than two swords in the shield wall. (Source "Vikinger I Krig" Norwegian publication)


    Spear was the go-to weapon of the vast majority of infantry historically before 1212, with the Romans as the only ones I can think of that relied on the sword instead as a main army weapon. The Romans Legions were not typical in any way though.

    By this mods start, that had begun to change in Europe. Heavy armor became more common among the ranks and spears which had dominated dismounted warfare was not enough any more, so polearms (Which is not the same as a spear, its a pole-weapon but not a polearm) evolved to better counter the increased amount of heavy armor and especially heavy cavalry. First to halberds and then pikes. Shields pretty much disappeared entirely in the period covered by the mod in western Europe except among militia and specialist siege units.
    Spears and swords were still used, but in order for swords and spears to be used efficient against plate different methods were employed. Swords were made more point and stiff (type 15/18). They would often be used as half swording in order to reach between gaps in your opponents armor.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] Lances were cut to short spears (5-6 feet, similar length to poleaxes) to be used as a weapon by dismounted knights to get under and between the gaps of plate of opposing heavy infantry (froissarts chronicles Poitiers, Roosebeke and Agincourt.). Fiore dei Liberi reference to the short spear [11][12][13][14]. Both were held by plate infantry against other plate infantry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    Shields pretty much disappeared entirely in the period covered by the mod in western Europe except among militia and specialist siege units.
    I'm a bit curious about this. Can you expand on your reasoning and sources? Ball park estimation of years, dates, primary sources and your reasoning.

    I see shields being used all the way through the late medieval period, except the knightly class who could afford top quality armor. For anyone else, the use of (Pavise) shield is prevalent. It seems as if it was less used overall, but to say they fell out of favor would be a bit too much in my opinion. Plate reinforced shields were found on the Mary Rose (mid 16th century). The amount of manuscripts showing shields in use during the late medieval period is quite extensive. I'll see if I can post some of those later today if that's of any interest to you. Thanks for any input.

    ~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; January 27, 2016 at 01:42 PM.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    Spears and swords were still used, but in order for swords and spears to be used efficient against plate different methods were employed. Swords were made more point and stiff (type 15/18). They would often be used as half swording in order to reach between gaps in your opponents armor.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] Lances were cut to short spears (5-6 feet, similar length to poleaxes) to be used as a weapon by dismounted knights to get under and between the gaps of plate of opposing heavy infantry (froissarts chronicles Poitiers, Roosebeke and Agincourt.). Fiore dei Liberi reference to the short spear [11][12][13][14]. Both were held by plate infantry against other plate infantry.
    I was not aware the spear was considered a knightly weapon. Then come to think of it I have seen some examples of high to late era spears in museums and such, guess I never gave it much thought. Still it followed the same principles of adapting weapons to meet the challenge provided by armor. As such I imagine the short spear being used more like a polearm (Which essentially becomes half a weapon and half a wrestling tool given both wear armor) than the spear familiar to a hoplite or found in a shieldwall.
    I'm a bit curious about this. Can you expand on your reasoning and sources? Ball park estimation of years, dates, primary sources and your reasoning.

    I see shields being used all the way through the late medieval period, except the knightly class who could afford top quality armor. For anyone else, the use of (Pavise) shield is prevalent. It seems as if it was less used overall, but to say they fell out of favor would be a bit too much in my opinion. Plate reinforced shields were found on the Mary Rose (mid 16th century). The amount of manuscripts showing shields in use during the late medieval period is quite extensive. I'll see if I can post some of those later today if that's of any interest to you. Thanks for any input.

    ~Wille
    I'm no weapons expert, and I'll admit I was wrong considering I have not got any actual sources to back me up on this. It was to my understanding that 15th century professional soldiers were either men at arms in plate armor where you needed your hands free or mercenaries wielding pikes and halberds. The rest were essentially millita and wielded whatever weapon they had access to including shields. There is a few oddball specialist units like the spanish sword and buckler men and various uses of the pavise. But if you got sources stating the contrary I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


    @Spear discussion: Yeah its generally accepted that spear beats swords, still the Romans found a way to consistently do it with clever infantry tactics. Exception to prove the rule?
    Last edited by Påsan; January 27, 2016 at 02:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    I was not aware the spear was considered a knightly weapon. Then come to think of it I have seen some examples of high to late era spears in museums and such, guess I never gave it much thought. Still it followed the same principles of adapting weapons to meet the challenge provided by armor. As such I imagine the short spear being used more like a polearm (Which essentially becomes half a weapon and half a wrestling tool given both wear armor) than the spear familiar to a hoplite or found in a shieldwall.
    Heavy infantry using spears. Whenever a killing blow happens it's either aimed at the visor, under the helmet, under the arm pits, groin or when the opponent is on the ground. There are probably more pictures, but needless to say I think you get the point.

    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/45-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/11-17.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/11-15.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/11-13.jpg
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/11-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/11-9.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/11-8.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-28.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-23.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-19.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/49-31.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/157-16.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/157-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1440-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/80-8.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/80-7.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/49-33.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/49-38.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/123-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/20-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/20-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/20-8.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/474-29.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/474-39.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/827-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/827-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1179-3.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1026-5.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1026-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/170-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/49-22.jpg
    http://athenaia.lu/uploads/cod2823_f...-936154839.jpg
    http://athenaia.lu/uploads/1795537_1...8551629432.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-26.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/951-4.jpg




    Quote Originally Posted by Påsan View Post
    I'm no weapons expert, and I'll admit I was wrong considering I have not got any actual sources to back me up on this. It was to my understanding that 15th century professional soldiers were either men at arms in plate armor where you needed your hands free or mercenaries wielding pikes and halberds. The rest were essentially millita and wielded whatever weapon they had access to including shields. There is a few oddball specialist units like the spanish sword and buckler men and various uses of the pavise. But if you got sources stating the contrary I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/450-12.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/450-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/710-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-177.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-136.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-131.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-128.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-126.jpg
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1045-28.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...529_fo218v.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/878-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/878-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/13-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/45-14.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1191-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/853-16.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/853-12.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/330-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/831-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/241-34.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/328-151.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/67-21.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/298-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/371-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/825-3.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/39-29.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/397-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/124-106.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/359-68.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/341-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/328-43.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/112-56.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1201-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1218-12.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1210-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/109-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/830-5.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/624-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/826-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1191-17.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1191-18.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1045-61.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/430-63.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/430-76.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/328-142.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/328-117.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/259-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1179-9.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/946-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/476-7.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1236-7.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/853-19.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/969-17.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/542-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/65-5.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/373-9.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/45-14.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1191-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/21-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/964-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/387-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1191-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/359-85.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...529_fo218v.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...iginal/1-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1177-5.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/45-3.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/2-13.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1177-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1191-1.jpg
    http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/megapavise_251.jpg

    Heater
    http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI02121d09a.jpg

    More oval pavise, germany 15th cent
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e17db70dab.jpg

    Handheld pavise
    http://i.imgur.com/1U4qF3V.png?1

    Round heater shields
    https://kulturbilder.files.wordpress...dala.jpg?w=700
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f0ee49a3d1.jpg

    14th century Oval shield (grandmaster teutonic)
    http://sammellust.tiroler-landesmuse...ekte/1862b.jpg

    16th century hungarian
    http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_49.57.1.jpg

    Florence 15th cent
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3a15446c36.jpg

    Tournament or cavalry shield
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c2b534b791.jpg

    Spanish
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...57b58aa05c.jpg

    Large pavise
    http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/big_pavises_155.jpg


    Everything in this post should be 14th and 15th century. There are many many more images, but I hope this should keep you covered.

    ~Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  20. #20
    Påsan's Avatar Hva i helvete?
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    Default Re: Spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    Heavy infantry using spears. Whenever a killing blow happens it's either aimed at the visor, under the helmet, under the arm pits, groin or when the opponent is on the ground. There are probably more pictures, but needless to say I think you get the point.

    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/45-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/11-17.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/11-15.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/11-13.jpg
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/11-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/11-9.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/11-8.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-28.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-23.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-19.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/49-31.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/157-16.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/157-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1440-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/80-8.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/80-7.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/49-33.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/49-38.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/123-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/20-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/20-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/20-8.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/474-29.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/474-39.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/827-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/827-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1179-3.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1026-5.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1026-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/170-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/49-22.jpg
    http://athenaia.lu/uploads/cod2823_f...-936154839.jpg
    http://athenaia.lu/uploads/1795537_1...8551629432.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/410-26.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/951-4.jpg








    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/450-12.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/450-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/710-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-177.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-136.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-131.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-128.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...l/1045-126.jpg
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1045-28.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...529_fo218v.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/878-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/878-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/13-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/45-14.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1191-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/853-16.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/853-12.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/330-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/831-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/241-34.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/328-151.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/67-21.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/298-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/371-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/825-3.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/39-29.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/397-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/124-106.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/359-68.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/341-4.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/328-43.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/112-56.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1201-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1218-12.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1210-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/109-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/830-5.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/624-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/826-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1191-17.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1191-18.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1045-61.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/430-63.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/430-76.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/328-142.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/328-117.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/259-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1179-9.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/946-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/476-7.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1236-7.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/853-19.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/969-17.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/542-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/65-5.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/373-9.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/45-14.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...al/1191-10.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/21-6.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...inal/964-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/387-11.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1191-1.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/359-85.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...529_fo218v.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...iginal/1-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1177-5.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/45-3.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...ginal/2-13.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1177-2.jpg
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/1191-1.jpg
    http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/megapavise_251.jpg

    Heater
    http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI02121d09a.jpg

    More oval pavise, germany 15th cent
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e17db70dab.jpg

    Handheld pavise
    http://i.imgur.com/1U4qF3V.png?1

    Round heater shields
    https://kulturbilder.files.wordpress...dala.jpg?w=700
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f0ee49a3d1.jpg

    14th century Oval shield (grandmaster teutonic)
    http://sammellust.tiroler-landesmuse...ekte/1862b.jpg

    16th century hungarian
    http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_49.57.1.jpg

    Florence 15th cent
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3a15446c36.jpg

    Tournament or cavalry shield
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c2b534b791.jpg

    Spanish
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...57b58aa05c.jpg

    Large pavise
    http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/big_pavises_155.jpg


    Everything in this post should be 14th and 15th century. There are many many more images, but I hope this should keep you covered.

    ~Wille

    I concede! One of the best posts I've seen on this forum for a while. Also puns. It stings.

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