Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Campaign Map Master Thread

[+Marius+]

In what world? They're missing Euboea

Nope, was not under Venetian rule in 1212.

the Duchy of Naxos, ]Koroni

True, but those were just a couple of islands and a coastal town.

the Duchy of Durazzo

You mean the fort of Durazzo...

Korfu

Not under direct Venetian rule, merely occupied after taken from the Genoans and soon given to the Despot of Epirus.

Ragusa

A tributary at best.

and their dominance of Istria and Dalmatia (most of which can't be done due to map coding, granted).

Lol, what dominance?

99% of Istria is still in the hands of ze Germans and in Dalmatia Venice has a couple islands and Zadar.


I get what you are trying to say, but if you look at the main province of Venice, you will realize that I am still technically right, as that province is larger than all those miniscule little enclaves of territory you just mentioned.

This is semantics. The Roman republic was a city-state controlled empire, as was the 'Aztec empire', or the Delian league. It would suck to see Venice being anything less than a major power in the Eastern mediterranean because some people feel the need to pump the tires of minor kingdoms. Gameplay trumps all.

It is not just semantics because the Venice you know was created through the 14th/15th century and afterwards.

This mods startdate is merely a decade after the sack of Constantinople and, apart from their fleet and trade income, Venice was definitely not a "major power" regardless of the influence they had in the region.

They nearly always merely meddled into affairs and rarely ever had the direct power to mount their own wars, that is until a few decades after this mods start date when the profits from the fourth Crusade finally elevated it into, what you could describe as a "major power".

Heck, their first war for dominance in the region against Genoa did not even happen until 1256.

[zsimmortal]

The capital of Venice is now a single minor settlement surrounded by 3 factions with 2 regions each (Austria, Lombardy and Croatia, of which the two latter factions have walled cities). Venice also has a minor settlement on an island it needs to defend, far away. It's supposedly getting buffs to compensate, so I guess it's going to be an interesting starting faction.

~Wille

No, Crete is a major settlement. But it is so remotely far from the main power base of Venice, it might as well be. This change essentially puts a kingdom under union on the same level as the dominant maritime power of the time. This is absurd. I sincerely hope Venice is so obscenely powerful that even when it comes to a single minor settlement's income and military potential, it'll destroy its neighbouring factions, but the game being what it is, that is a slim chance.

Nope, was not under Venetian rule in 1212.

It was under Venetian influence and was under direct Venetian control not even half a century later.

True, but those were just a couple of islands and a coastal town.

Quite a few islands (all of the southern part of the Aegean except Rhodes) and a foothold in Greece, hardly minor.

You mean the fort of Durazzo...

No the Duchy, but most of it was centered around Durazzo, which also happened to be the most important city in the area. You can downplay all of this stuff all you want, Venice clearly lost a lot of turf.

Not under direct Venetian rule, merely occupied after taken from the Genoans and soon given to the Despot of Epirus.

It was clearly part of the Venetian commercial empire in 1212, the rest is irrelevant.

A tributary at best.

Yes, a tributary whose port was used by Venice. Clearly in Venice's sphere.

Lol, what dominance?

99% of Istria is still in the hands of ze Germans and in Dalmatia Venice has a couple islands and Zadar.

I get what you are trying to say, but if you look at the main province of Venice, you will realize that I am still technically right, as that province is larger than all those miniscule little enclaves of territory you just mentioned.

They controlled a fair part of the coastal cities and would come to complete its control over the 13th century. While the territory of Venice would be largely oversized compared to their historical control, they owned the coastal trade, which is economical dominance.

It is not just semantics because the Venice you know was created through the 14th/15th century and afterwards.

This mods startdate is merely a decade after the sack of Constantinople and, apart from their fleet and trade income, Venice was definitely not a "major power" regardless of the influence they had in the region.

They nearly always merely meddled into affairs and rarely ever had the direct power to mount their own wars, that is until a few decades after this mods start date when the profits from the fourth Crusade finally elevated it into, what you could describe as a "major power".

Heck, their first war for dominance in the region against Genoa did not even happen until 1256.

They were already a major player in the Eastern Mediterranean and would become the major naval power of the mod's period. As such, it is only logical that they have the means to play out Venice's role, as much as possible. Having a minor settlement in Italy (that can't be actively protected by its navy) and a major thousands of miles away is hardly giving the faction a chance to do justice to Venice's role in the high and late middle ages.

[+Marius+]

It was under Venetian influence and was under direct Venetian control not even half a century later.

But not at the startdate.

You can downplay all of this stuff all you want, Venice clearly a lot of turf.

You can argue that it had a lot of important turf, but you cannot argue that it had a lot of turf.

These are small islands and coastal towns you speak of, not some swaps of land.

hardly giving the faction a chance to do justice to Venice's role in the high and late middle ages.

I understand, my question is only how the hell would giving them a province in the Balkans improve their situation in any significant manner?

[zsimmortal]

But not at the startdate.

The ruler of Negroponte had agreed to give Venice commercial rights along with accepting Venetian authority. I'd say that's pretty much part of Venice's territory. Not to mention it would come under direct control shortly after.

You can argue that it had a lot of important turf, but you cannot argue that it had a lot of turf.

These are small islands and coastal towns you speak of, not some swaps of land.

Corrected my mistake. Venice didn't build its trade empire by conquering vast swathes of land, but by controlling ports and trade routes. They're a part of this and incredibly important in the Black Sea trade.

I understand, my question is only how the hell would giving them a province in the Balkans improve their situation in any significant manner?

They now have 2 settlements in their power base, along with a walled settlement to defend from the balkans. It doubles their military production potential with 2 places to recruit from. The settlement of Slavonia is also a port, which helps their naval dominance. Also limits the amount of power a subject of Hungary being able to conquer Venice by itself.

[+Marius+]

They now have 2 settlements in their power base

Which is why I was advising that Venice be compensated with Verona.

[zsimmortal]

Which is why I was advising that Venice be compensated with Verona.

Except Venice only took Mestre (which is today part of the Venetian metro area) over a 100 years after the start date. Verona is 15th century. If even a slight part of this argument for who gets what province is even remotely historical, this is above and beyond ahistorical.

[+Marius+]

Except Venice only took Mestre (which is today part of the Venetian metro area) over a 100 years after the start date. Verona is 15th century.

So?

It did not have inland Dalmatia until the 18th century...

At least by having Verona the game fills the area that was completely scattered with local communes instead of eliminating a firmly established and sizeable kingdom that actually existed at the time.

this is above and beyond ahistorical.

Then what are you arguing for?

Historically, Venice should not even have 99% of the current main province that it has...

[zsimmortal]

So?

It did not have inland Dalmatia until the 18th century...

At least by having Verona the game fills the area that was completely scattered with local communes instead of eliminating a firmly established and sizeable kingdom that actually existed at the time.

Venice never had major ambitions in terms of swathes of lands at that point of its history. It completely controlled most of the wealth in that part of the world, however. Even its possessions in the Latin empire were mostly abandoned for lack of Venetian interest (Adrianople, the Dardanelles, Gallipoli, the Western Greek lands beyond Koroni, Methani and other ports).

I'm not sure how Venice having that province eliminates anything relevant. Croatia was just part of the larger Hungarian realm and could have been integrated into the faction for the mod and nothing of value would be lost. It is still going to get a province should the major settlement be assigned to Venice. I'm also not sure what's wrong with the Lombard league beyond the fact that it wasn't a centralized entity, which is like a lot of factions for total war games and actually existed at the time.

Then what are you arguing for?

Historically, Venice should not even have 99% of the current main province that it has...

It didn't. It, however, held the most important city in the region from which it became the dominant naval power of the mod's period. They can't slice up the territory any more than it already has, so there's really nothing to do about this. I'm not in favour of crippling major factions for pandering to people who feel the need to have their national ego stroked.

[comiiv]

Hello, I like what you did so far, but watching the starting factions and emergent factions map I noticed that Bulgaria holds the lands that were historically in Serbian kingodom, in that period ( judging by Latin Empire I would say it's a period after the fourth crusade). One more thing-Zeta should be based in the area of modern Montenegro and coast of Adriatic not in the area presented on the map.

[Beregond]

I kinda agree that giving two settlements to such a minor power might lead to totally overpowering it. One settlement is justified, yet taking the coastline from Venetians will cripple them. In the end, I suggest extensive campaign testing before the final decision as the Balkans are already terribly overcrowded.

[finix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYT-KuADv3I

[Beregond]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYT-KuADv3I

seen this video; while entertaining, it's terribly, terribly inaccurate

[tmina32]

I'm not in favour of crippling major factions for pandering to people who feel the need to have their national ego stroked.

Really now?

I guess you're supposedly 100% unbiased, then...
Also shows how high of an opinion you have about the team, if you think this is happening in their mod.

Venice can be beefed up with: developed cities, lots of starting trade agreements, extra income in the faction trait. I think we're all too afraid about factions being eliminated too soon as if the game was EU4, and forget that it's Total War, everyone eliminates everyone eventually. AI is way too random to ensure that all the factions survive, and Venice will simply be a challenging faction - as it probably should be, unlike babby's first civs like France or England.

This.

I kinda agree that giving two settlements to such a minor power might lead to totally overpowering it. One settlement is justified, yet taking the coastline from Venetians will cripple them. In the end, I suggest extensive campaign testing before the final decision as the Balkans are already terribly overcrowded.

No, it has not made it overpowered, it's still a vassal faction. Only properly represented.

[zsimmortal]

Really now?

I guess you're supposedly 100% unbiased, then...
Also shows how high of an opinion you have about the team, if you think this is happening in their mod.

Considering I'm not Croatian, nor am I from any part of Europe, I'm pretty sure I'm not influenced by nationalism. This happens in every single historical game as soon as the Balkans are involved... (e.g. from eu4 forums) 'Why isn't Croatia separate but under union', 'why isn't there Bosnian culture', 'why aren't Serbian ideas better', 'Wallachia is poorly designed, can't fight Ottoman empire by itself', etc.

This.

No, it has not made it overpowered, it's still a vassal faction. Only properly represented.

I get it. You prefer seeing big Croatia at the expense of one of the major factions of the period. Just understand that Croatia was irrelevant for the time period while Venice was actually extremely important. For game play purposes, having a vassal state in the immediate vicinity of a major power that can take it out due to local advantage is just absurd. Unfortunately, the mod has already been changed, but Croatia could not even be on the map, just a releasable with some Hungarian units/mercs, and it would be perfectly fine for Croatia's role and potential in the period. No independent foreign policy, no independent king.

[nnnm]

*Again, Banu Ghaniyah were no more in the mod start date ... if u want to add another factions u can add the Hilaids Arab tribes as horde faction in Ifryqia region. Also the region in orange is the area that was under the Hafsid control at the time.
*Also Rasulids weren't yet there in the start date of the mod but in 1229
*Ahmadilies line ended in about 1207-1208 after the death of Ala'Eu Ad'Din Qara'Sunqur Ahmadilies. He left a very young son and and the son died too in the same year and Atabeg Uzbeg of Azerbaijan took Maraghah city.
*Also Hormuz region was under the Atabegs of Faris (Silghurids)
*The region in blue was under Atabeg Minkly of Jabal in 1212. he was one of Bahlawaniyyah Mamluks.

[jan_boruta]

Why didn't you point it all out earlier? It's all becoming a joke that after I announce it's the "final" version a million unhappy people spring out, even though they were happy before.

Alright, alright, I'll remove the Banu Ghaniya just so you stop talking about it.
I'll remove the Ahmadilis and give the region to Azerbaijan. Give Hormuz to Salghurids.
Rasulids are staying to represent Yemen. A decade doesn't make a difference in such a remote region.
I wont' introduce that Minkly guy.

But after that stop with suggestions. All will be disregarded, no are going to be done. Venice vs. Croatia dispute is irrelevant until the campaign is actually done and balance can be tested.

[SerbianWOLF]

Considering I'm not Croatian, nor am I from any part of Europe, I'm pretty sure I'm not influenced by nationalism. This happens in every single historical game as soon as the Balkans are involved... (e.g. from eu4 forums) 'Why isn't Croatia separate but under union', 'why isn't there Bosnian culture', 'why aren't Serbian ideas better', 'Wallachia is poorly designed, can't fight Ottoman empire by itself', etc.

This is off-topic don't you think ? But EU4 should correct some historical mistakes, if you ask me.
Giving all of Dalmatia to Venice is ahistorical. Giving all of Dalmatia to Croatia is also ahistorical. So if you ask me I would give it to the one that was richer, stronger... Guys leave nationalism behing. 65% of historical serbian lands(at that time) are in Bulgaria, Epirus, Venice/Croatia(depends who controls Dalmatia). I am not so angry about it. Understand that borders cannot be changed. Land does not count ! BUT CITIES DO !

I get it. You prefer seeing big Croatia at the expense of one of the major factions of the period. Just understand that Croatia was irrelevant for the time period while Venice was actually extremely important. For game play purposes, having a vassal state in the immediate vicinity of a major power that can take it out due to local advantage is just absurd. Unfortunately, the mod has already been changed, but Croatia could not even be on the map, just a releasable with some Hungarian units/mercs, and it would be perfectly fine for Croatia's role and potential in the period. No independent foreign policy, no independent king.

He is not the first nor last nor the only one who would like to see his country in such great mod and to have larger state as well But keeping the balance is more important here because borders are totaly bad considering medieval age !

[tmina32]

You prefer seeing big Croatia

This kind of discourse won't produce anything helpful, so I'll pass, thanks.

[zsimmortal]

This is off-topic don't you think ? But EU4 should correct some historical mistakes, if you ask me.
Giving all of Dalmatia to Venice is ahistorical. Giving all of Dalmatia to Croatia is also ahistorical. So if you ask me I would give it to the one that was richer, stronger... Guys leave nationalism behing. 65% of historical serbian lands(at that time) are in Bulgaria, Epirus, Venice/Croatia(depends who controls Dalmatia). I am not so angry about it. Understand that borders cannot be changed. Land does not count ! BUT CITIES DO !

Sort of off-topic yes, just illustrating that this is typical and very annoying. There's going to be inaccuracies everywhere because it is a game and can't shape everything perfectly. Even worst in this case since settlements are hard-coded. And the amount of people whining over where settlements are and who they belong to for just that part of the map is massively disproportionate.

He is not the first nor last nor the only one who would like to see his country in such great mod and to have larger state as well But keeping the balance is more important here because borders are totaly bad considering medieval age !

Yes, exactly.

[SerbianWOLF]

Croatia is now overpowerd and much bigger than it was(balance is lost ), if you ask me. But giving it to Venice would aslo seem ahistorical becuse of large amount of land. So my opinion is that modders should balance this. By giving it to stronger, richer and more important faction. Now some guys can say Croatia(Hungary) held dalmatian coast. They did but Serbia did as well. almost 40% of it ! So if Serbia does not have sea. There is no need for Croatia as well. And people stop being so damn angry.