My EBII now has LORICA SEGMENTATA legions for Rome, but they're holding their shields incorrectly

[Roma_Victrix]

Allow me to introduce, courtesy of the M2TW mod De Bello Mundi (DBM), the lorica segmentata Roman legion "Legio Victrix VI" that I have imported into EBII (along with ancient Han Chinese/Yuezhi heavy cavalry from East Asia, but I'm having no issues with them). Looks pretty cool, right? WRONG. Look how they're holding their shields: no one would ever hold that particular shield like that, and I can't get them to form together tightly like a disciplined Roman legion (instead of a loose, unruly mob, or rather, "blob" of soldiers). Historically, the Roman legions fought in very orderly, tightly packed walls of men, didn't they? I guess that would make them susceptible to artillery fire, but testudo formation helped to block and deflect some of that, right?



Some more pics if you're interested:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As seen in this pic of Legio X Gemina from DBM, the legionaries above are supposed to hold their shields like this:



For the life of me, I can't figure out which proper skeleton and animation I should choose in the battle_modelsdb file. The end part looks like this:

4 None 
13 EB_Slow_Pilum 
24 EB_Sword_horizontal_grip 
1 
16 EB_Pilum_primary 
1 
18 MTW2_Sword_Primary 
16 -0.090000004 0 0 -0.34999999 0.80000001 0.60000002

Believe it or not, they looked worse and clumsier before I changed "EB_Legionary" to "EB_Sword_horizontal_grip" (the latter employed by the Hellenistic "Machairophoroi" swordsmen). That's because EB legionaries hold their arms down vertically while gripping their shields. It took me a while to notice this. Could someone knowledgeable about modding and working with the battle_modelsdb file suggest a better skeleton to work with? Something more compatible with DBM legionaries like seen in the pic above? I still need them to throw their pila (sing pilum) correctly, though, so keep that in mind.

[Shadowwalker]

Looks pretty cool, right? WRONG. Look how they're holding their shields: no one would ever hold that particular shield like that, and I can't get them to form together tightly like a disciplined Roman legion (instead of a loose, unruly mob, or rather, "blob" of soldiers).

I'll not be of actual use for your question, I'm afraid, but I can't resist to leave two comments:

(1) I'll never understand what causes people to get all excited about Lorica Segmentata. It's in my eyes the ugliest armour the romans used throughout their whole history.
(That's not to say that the DBM units you imported are ugly - just talking about the armour itself).

(2) If you force Romans from the 2nd/maybe even 3rd (?) century AD to appear a few hundred years early (and in numbers they historically never had) you should expect a bit of confusion on their part. Just be glad that they don't sport more or less hands and feet than back then when you sent them on their voyage. Watch the "back to future" movies for details about time warp confusion.

[Apani]

(1) I'll never understand what causes people to get all excited about Lorica Segmentata. It's in my eyes the ugliest armour the romans used throughout their whole history.

Playing Rome as a kid I used to find legionnaries in lorica segmentata very cool, nowadays they just look like crushed tin cans.

[Roma_Victrix]

Playing Rome as a kid I used to find legionnaries in lorica segmentata very cool, nowadays they just look like crushed tin cans.

Lorica segmentata certainly didn't offer the deflective capabilities of late medieval Gothic plate armor (and, of course, the iron used was not on par with the far more advanced metallurgy and casting of the 15th century), but as far as plate armor goes it wasn't terrible. It obviously wasn't as flexible as lorica hamata, but chainmail is basically the most flexible metal armor one could wear, so it's not exactly a fair comparison. Scale mail (lorica squamata) also had different advantages and disadvantages. The problem with lorica segmentata was the repair process, which was much harder than simply adding new chainmail links to a suit of lorica hamata. The fact that segmentata was used for three hundred some odd years is a testament to its practicality in some regards, at the very least.

[Roma_Victrix]

I'm well aware that the game hypothetically ends in 14 AD, but the game itself doesn't CTD after that point. By the end of the 1st century AD lorica segmentata was widely used because it was cheaper than lorica hamata, albeit not as easy to repair and replace. This is more or less an attempt of mine to experiment with importing new units rather than some misplaced n00b obsession with lorica segmentata. I haven't even added this unit to the "export_descr_buildings" file yet and if I did, I certainly wouldn't make it available until after the Marian reform event. It would be ludicrous, obviously, to have it available in 272 BC.

[Arsaces II]

I think that the only think you need to do is to follow my suggestion here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...its-A-Question

it's pretty much applicable in this case, too. just give them to use same animation as the EB II roman legionary uses, but also check and compare it's shield position with EB II one (in 3ds Max).

[Rafkos]

Download all sorts of converters to get ms3d file out of mesh file. Then rotate the shield in milkshape, there's a lot of tutorials here on TWC on how to edit models

[Roma_Victrix]

Thanks for the replies! Using the 3D modelling tools is a bit above my paygrade, though. After unpacking the .dat animation and skeleton folders, I simply tried to add the DBM ones relating to the Roman legions, but I couldn't even get that to work. I must have made some tiny error or something somewhere while editing the pathways in each of the animation files. It was too nerve-racking to continue or try that experiment again. Maybe I'll try again some day. Not today, though.

[Rafkos]

Well, you don't have to model anything, simply rotate the shield so it will look fine in game

[sgz]

Looking cool to me. I agree they'll be better if you can get the shields held vertically. When will you release for download ? I'd be happy to use " as is " for now.

[Roma_Victrix]

Like I said above, I haven't added them to the export_descr_buildings file yet at all, so I'm not actually using them in any sort of campaign. I certainly could, though. To be honest I didn't think anyone would be interested in using them "as is" considering the silly way they're holding their shields. In either case, if you want them, don't despair, a much more adept modder named "midnite" is soon to release his late Roman legionary submod for EB II (just check the unofficial mods subforum). He said he'd work on it this weekend. It's the same legionaries you see here plus a few more from DBM.

[sgz]

Like I said above, I haven't added them to the export_descr_buildings file yet at all, so I'm not actually using them in any sort of campaign. I certainly could, though. To be honest I didn't think anyone would be interested in using them "as is" considering the silly way they're holding their shields. In either case, if you want them, don't despair, a much more adept modder named "midnite" is soon to release his late Roman legionary submod for EB II (just check the unofficial mods subforum). He said he'd work on it this weekend. It's the same legionaries you see here plus a few more from DBM.

Sweet. Thanks. I'll look forward to "Midnites" offerings. Cheers

[Pherion]

On contrary to many here, my favourite Unit in this Age was The Legionnaire with the Lorica Segmentata. I just find that armor super sexy and so "Imperialistic"!

So, thanks for adding my favourite unit of the Roman Era to EB, I hope the problems with the shield will get fixed, so I can use it soon!

[Slaytaninc]

This is what you get for defying the gods of historical verisimilitude.

[Roma_Victrix]

This is what you get for defying the gods of historical verisimilitude.

It's like breaking into the pharaoh's burial chamber and stealing his treasure, only to be cursed and plagued for the rest of your (short) life.

On contrary to many here, my favourite Unit in this Age was The Legionnaire with the Lorica Segmentata. I just find that armor super sexy and so "Imperialistic"!

So, thanks for adding my favourite unit of the Roman Era to EB, I hope the problems with the shield will get fixed, so I can use it soon!

Like I said above, I could release this as is if I wanted to (after editing the EDB file), but that's pointless considering how Midnite is going to do a much better job than I and have it released hopefully by the end of this week! If not then, hopefully next week he'll have it done. Just have patience.

[Pherion]

I'll absolutly will! It's what I've always ever wanted for Rome in EB!

[RubiconDecision]

The problem is Rome will be unstoppable. Game over from 9BC.

Unless other kingdoms also have better units? Or they could swarm them.

What's their EDU values? What is their Achilles heel?

They're gorgeous, and sometimes you want to stomp the enemy with elite units, but if you only help Rome, it's like giving late 16th samurai cuirass armour way too early before it became an adaptation from being around Europeans. Then, not helping the other kingdoms.
[Which I was tempted to do].

[Roma_Victrix]

The problem is Rome will be unstoppable. Game over from 9BC.

Unless other kingdoms also have better units? Or they could swarm them.

What's their EDU values? What is their Achilles heel?

They're gorgeous, and sometimes you want to stomp the enemy with elite units, but if you only help Rome, it's like giving late 16th samurai cuirass armour way too early before it became an adaptation from being around Europeans. Then, not helping the other kingdoms.
[Which I was tempted to do].

Vae victis - 'woe to the vanquished'.

Seriously, though, I toned down their overpowered stats from DBM as suggested by QuintusSertorius (in a post that is now lost because of the stupid rollback of TWC forums to December 25). Here's what it looks like presently:

; COMMENTS              Legionary_Victrix6 / Start exp: 1 / Refr rate: 0,325 / Pool cap: 3
type                    Legionary_Victrix6
dictionary              Legionary_Victrix6
category                infantry
class                   heavy
voice_type              Heavy
banner faction          main_infantry
soldier                 Legionary_Victrix6, 64, 0, 1.07
officer                 officer_roman_marian
officer                 officer_roman_signifer
officer					officer_roman_vexillarius
attributes              sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, cannot_skirmish
move_speed_mod          0.9
formation               0.85, 1.08, 0.6, 1.4, 4, square, shield_wall
stat_health             1, 5
stat_pri                29, 0, pilum, 60, 2, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr           prec, thrown
stat_sec                10, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr           no
stat_pri_armour         11, 8, 10, metal
stat_sec_armour         0, 0, flesh
stat_heat               4
stat_ground             -2, -1, -3, -2
stat_mental             16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist        30
stat_fire_delay         0
stat_food               60, 300
stat_cost               1, 1500, 375, 101, 1580, 783, 5, 333
stat_stl                0
armour_ug_levels        4, 5
armour_ug_models        Legionary_Victrix6, Legionary_Victrix6
ownership               f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave, f_bellouakoi
era 0                   f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_baktria, f_saka
era 1                   f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_baktria, f_saka
era 2                   f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_baktria, f_saka
info_pic_dir            f_all
card_pic_dir            f_all
recruit_priority_offset 15

[RubiconDecision]

Due to significant mental boost stability and discipline, this
stat_cost 1, 1500, 375, 101, 1580, 783, 5, 333

Should be

stat_cost 1, 2500, 375, 101, 1580, 783, 5, 333

Expensive.

See:

; COMMENTS First Cohors Reformata (Post-Marian Legionary First Cohort) / Unit ID 193 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,048 / Pool cap: 6
type roman infantry reformata first
dictionary roman_infantry_reformata_first
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General
accent Roman_Latin
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Marian_First_Cohort, 96, 0, 1.25, 0.3
officer officer_roman_marian
officer officer_roman_aquilifer
officer officer_roman_legion_vexillarius
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, command
move_speed_mod 0.83
formation 0.89, 1.19, 2.7, 2.7, 4, square
stat_health 1, 5
stat_pri 29, 0, pilum, 60, 1, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 10, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 6, 9, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground -1, -3, -3, -5
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 14
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2500, 625, 81, 591, 2500, 6, 625
stat_stl 9
armour_ug_levels 0
armour_ug_models Marian_First_Cohort
ownership f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave, f_bellouakoi
era 0 f_rome
era 1 f_rome
era 2 f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu
info_pic_dir f_all
card_pic_dir f_all
recruit_priority_offset 50

Your units are faster and cheaper too but should be even more expensive to create and maintain.

[Roma_Victrix]

Ah! Cool. Thanks for the catch. Mind you, that's a comparison to the Marian first cohort, which is supposed to be the best of the best from that era, but the "disciplined" and "highly_trained" attributes should be accounted for and should cost a pretty penny (or in this case a...pretty sestertius).