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Thread: [CAMPAIGN] Manpower System for Ancient Empires, By Causeless

  1. #41

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest51 View Post
    Many cultures also had a middle or freeholder class to recruit from, and they had their own niche on the battlefield. So maybe they can be included if it doesn't make things too complicated.
    I've talked to a few people and it sounds like most people want 3 groups. People of Rome has 4 groups of population, but I'm not sure this is something where more is necessarily better. Also, I think in Ancient Empites we'll be representing auxiliaries etc in a different way.
    modificateurs sans frontières

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  2. #42
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    An awesome idea, can this be added in to make any role playing elements?





















































  3. #43

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    such as?
    Vespasian's own: Up the Augusta! For Cato!

    AE: Battle Balancing and BAI.

  4. #44
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Petellius View Post
    such as?
    Well say you had a dilema:

    Senators! Senators! Heed my words! Carthage must be attacked! They must suffer the consequences of having defeated our forces. I, Senator Gauis Valerus call upon Tribune Tiberius Marcus to lead an army and destroy Carthagainian armies!

    Options:

    A) Give the consul to Tribune Tiberius, it would be advantage for us to do so. Rome's borders are protected, and so are we.

    Result:

    When the player presses this option, he can go down to the box where it shows the citizens. The plebians would be 98 which could be a positive as the Tribune is quite popular. The senators could be 50, for they are disappointed and would have hoped you would have send it. The praiticans are 70 - mixed.

    B) No, giving the consul to Tiberius means that will already diminish whatever influence we have left! You can't possibly be that mad to let someone take it. I suggest we send our own candidate instead.

    Result:

    Patricians - 70.
    Plebains - 40.
    Senators - 99.

    Etc.

    That kind of idea, so you mix an dilema and you can see the effect it has on your population. Issuing decrees also can have an effect.





















































  5. #45

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    That's a really interesting idea! I'll definitely look into it when I have time.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
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    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
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    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    A question for you guys:

    Do you think mercenary troops should reduce manpower? And if so, what population class would they take from? Would they have their own?

    Just wanting to gauge input. I personally believe that mercenaries shouldn't take any manpower - they're expensive enough as is. I think this would allow interesting mechanics too - for example, in the punic wars, Carthage had an economic advantage (and utilized mercenaries heavily), but lacked manpower, while Rome had lots of manpower. I reckon that making mercenaries not take any manpower would help build that aspect of the game. What do you rest of you guys think?
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

  7. #47

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Causeless View Post
    Just wanting to gauge input. I personally believe that mercenaries shouldn't take any manpower - they're expensive enough as is. I think this would allow interesting mechanics too - for example, in the punic wars, Carthage had an economic advantage (and utilized mercenaries heavily), but lacked manpower, while Rome had lots of manpower. I reckon that making mercenaries not take any manpower would help build that aspect of the game. What do you rest of you guys think?
    Same as your Carthaginian example. Mercs shouldnt be count as manpower because theyre imo wanderers, sellswords... Not permanent settlers nor part of social structure of any society. However, they pose a threat if theyre not paid by their patrons. And even cause civil wars just like Carthage had to overcome after the first Punic war. But this is another story,

  8. #48
    Willhelm123's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Though the Libyan units used by Carthage were more like auxiliaries, not mercenaries.
    AE Dev, mainly units

  9. #49
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Causeless View Post
    That's a really interesting idea! I'll definitely look into it when I have time.
    No problem, its also becomes way interesting when you can consider so many ideas. It fits well into the theme of your mod. Sure, np.





















































  10. #50
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Causeless View Post
    A question for you guys:

    Do you think mercenary troops should reduce manpower? And if so, what population class would they take from? Would they have their own?

    Just wanting to gauge input. I personally believe that mercenaries shouldn't take any manpower - they're expensive enough as is. I think this would allow interesting mechanics too - for example, in the punic wars, Carthage had an economic advantage (and utilized mercenaries heavily), but lacked manpower, while Rome had lots of manpower. I reckon that making mercenaries not take any manpower would help build that aspect of the game. What do you rest of you guys think?
    Mercanries should be a population class of rouges and bandits that roam around the land. There's got to be plenty of them. Mercanries can range from specalised units to low scum mobs. They should bolster man power rather than reduce. I'd get rid of the expensive prices for them. In RTW it was easy to equip them in your army when you ran out of native troops.

    Here's an idea taken from RTW.

    Say you were a Carthaginian general, you would go to Numidia as your client satrapy. When you scroll to the land, a box will appear showing the amount of mercanies:

    So box 1:
    Description:

    General, reports from the scouts say that the mercanries around here are ready to serve you for the right bidder. You must decide whether you want Numidians, or some of the stronger armored Numidian Swordsmen. It will cost since we are in the north of Numidia. Juba is allowing us to do so at his will....

    Mercanries - 100.
    Swordsmen - 320
    Bandits - 300.

    And depending on that, you can recruit the amount of mercanies you want from your client satrapy, or from any other land. It can depend on what situations require you to hire mercarnies.





















































  11. #51

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Well, I should be able to just add the manpower systems onto the normal mercenary system. With a client satrapy you can levy troops from them anyways, so I don't think the mercenary system should be used there.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

  12. #52

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Well, in terms of mercenaries, it's hard to see how they could count against if it doesn't involve the AI. If the AI isn't involved in this system, there's no way to make it work realistically.

    The way a lot of mercenaries in the ancient world ended up working was that it was actually often one state forming a treaty with another (usually smaller, weaker). So Cretan archers - we typically view them as mercenaries, but they were actually viewed as 'allies.' City-states on Crete would sign agreements with the larger Hellenistic powers for the city-state to provide a certain number of 'allies' who were paid for by the buying power. Another aspect of these deals was that the other state could often then also go in recruit more bodies besides the ones mandated by the treaty. The state essentially granted permission to the other party to come in and recruit. It was a financial, military, and diplomatic arrangement.

    So, logically to work in game, we'd need to duplicate the diplomatic component. Agreements between states would lead to certain mercenaries becoming available.
    The inferior power gets power and protection in exchange for manpower.
    The costs are born by the signing state still.

    Causeless as the one implementing the system is the one best suited to actually determine if this is possible and worth implementing.


  13. #53

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by ABH2 View Post
    Well, in terms of mercenaries, it's hard to see how they could count against if it doesn't involve the AI. If the AI isn't involved in this system, there's no way to make it work realistically.

    The way a lot of mercenaries in the ancient world ended up working was that it was actually often one state forming a treaty with another (usually smaller, weaker). So Cretan archers - we typically view them as mercenaries, but they were actually viewed as 'allies.' City-states on Crete would sign agreements with the larger Hellenistic powers for the city-state to provide a certain number of 'allies' who were paid for by the buying power. Another aspect of these deals was that the other state could often then also go in recruit more bodies besides the ones mandated by the treaty. The state essentially granted permission to the other party to come in and recruit. It was a financial, military, and diplomatic arrangement.

    So, logically to work in game, we'd need to duplicate the diplomatic component. Agreements between states would lead to certain mercenaries becoming available.
    The inferior power gets power and protection in exchange for manpower.
    The costs are born by the signing state still.

    Causeless as the one implementing the system is the one best suited to actually determine if this is possible and worth implementing.
    "The inferior power gets power and protection in exchange for manpower" -

    That's essentially describing the levy system already in the vanilla game. If you have a satrapy/client state and march your armies into their lands, you can recruit units from them. The mercenary system in the game is a separate mechanic which is meant to represent, well, mercenaries.

    I actually think you could build the AoR system around this. You could use your client states to recruit foreign AoR troops while recruiting native troops from your own settlements. If we made it so outright conquering a region caused it's manpower to plummet, the player would have an incentive to want client states so they could use their manpower - whereas just conquering it would make the region useless as a military recruitment centre because the manpower would plummet.

    By utilizing war weariness and some campaign AI tweaks we could encourage the AI to be more likely to agree to becoming a client state after losing a few major battles, too.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

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    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

  14. #54

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Causeless View Post
    "The inferior power gets power and protection in exchange for manpower" -

    That's essentially describing the levy system already in the vanilla game. If you have a satrapy/client state and march your armies into their lands, you can recruit units from them. The mercenary system in the game is a separate mechanic which is meant to represent, well, mercenaries.

    I actually think you could build the AoR system around this. You could use your client states to recruit foreign AoR troops while recruiting native troops from your own settlements. If we made it so outright conquering a region caused it's manpower to plummet, the player would have an incentive to want client states so they could use their manpower - whereas just conquering it would make the region useless as a military recruitment centre because the manpower would plummet.

    By utilizing war weariness and some campaign AI tweaks we could encourage the AI to be more likely to agree to becoming a client state after losing a few major battles, too.
    I don't think that is needed, or necessarily a good idea. Client States and satraps are an inconvenience at best in the recent total war games. Also, ABH has been working on creating a building tree where you can choose different occupation methods such as a client state, colony, tributary state, a state with privileges such as citizenship and others that I forget right now. I think that would be the better option.
    Vespasian's own: Up the Augusta! For Cato!

    AE: Battle Balancing and BAI.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    in the recent total war games
    If anything, they are better now than they ever have been. Ever gotten a client state in Rome 1 or Medieval 2? The only time I ever got one in those games was when I paid 80,000 denars to a 1-region faction while they were surrounded by my armies, and they declared war on me again 3 turns after...

    Anyways, was just throwing around ideas I suppose.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

  16. #56

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Well, I haven't decided to get rid of client states. I think it can still work intuitively with our building design.

    The mercenary system in the game is a separate mechanic which is meant to represent, well, mercenaries.
    Currently, yes. Though what I had in mind is some way to make mercenaries tied more to diplomatic factors. That doesn't necessarily or perhaps even shouldn't involve manpower. It's something I can do through buildings rather than just as mercenaries or a script as I've posted elsewhere. I have no strong opinion on that and it's really something that is for you to determine.


  17. #57
    Argive Strategos's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    I think the levying from client states is a good idea. Although tributary states and colonies? This mod just keeps getting better and better. ������

  18. #58
    Willhelm123's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Certain provinces, like Crete, could have a trade resource called "Mercenaries". When you have a trade agreement with Crete or the faction controlling Crete, you get access to recruit Cretan Archers in any province. That way they wouldn't have to be a client state to get access to them, and going by what ABH said it seems like certain states essentially treated soldiers as a trade goods. Which makes sense in a world full of slavery, it's basically one up on that.
    AE Dev, mainly units

  19. #59

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Certain provinces, like Crete, could have a trade resource called "Mercenaries". When you have a trade agreement with Crete or the faction controlling Crete, you get access to recruit Cretan Archers in any province. That way they wouldn't have to be a client state to get access to them, and going by what ABH said it seems like certain states essentially treated soldiers as a trade goods. Which makes sense in a world full of slavery, it's basically one up on that.
    This is definitely a goal of mine, if it's possible. It may not involve scripting at all right now as it may be possible in just the DB. Other issues would be - kind of odd to be in the middle of Germania and to be able to pull a Numidian unit out instantly.

    It may be best to keep this away from the manpower system, though, for a variety of reasons. And it would definitely make mercenaries more valuable in the game.


  20. #60

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Well depending on if you can get units tied to manpower in specific regions, you could always have cretan archers lowering pop in crete everytime they are recruited. It would be a cool thing if we could extended recruitment times the further you go from the province, so recruiting numidians in germany is fine, but it will take them a year to reach you. Pretty sure that could be done with AoR DB stuff.
    Vespasian's own: Up the Augusta! For Cato!

    AE: Battle Balancing and BAI.

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