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Thread: [CAMPAIGN] Manpower System for Ancient Empires, By Causeless

  1. #1

    Default [CAMPAIGN] Manpower System for Ancient Empires, By Causeless

    Hello, I'm here to announce an update on Ancient Empires's manpower system. I am now creating the manpower system, based off of my own previous code which I have kept updated for use in Medieval Kingdoms.

    A public usable release has not been created yet, but hopefully we should see an implementation in when AE releases with a campaign. For any modders who are interested in exploring the code or helping, you can find the full source code online here, under the GPL v3.


    That's all for now. I'll be updating and showing more work here when it is at a suitable stage.
    Last edited by Causeless; January 03, 2017 at 12:36 PM.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ancient Empires Population mod: "Citizenship"

    I can't say how happy we are to have you on board, Causeless. Fantastic work.


  3. #3
    UMCenturion's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Ancient Empires Population mod: "Citizenship"

    amazing stuff Causeless!

    Mod Lead - UI/2D Art - Custom Map Editing

  4. #4

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Most impressive effort there, Causeless! I'm sure many people will be extremely excited to see this. It's great to have you on the team.
    Campaign modder for Ancient Empires


  5. #5

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Brilliant, great work!

    Will, or can, this be tied in with the culture distribution within a province? Say the culture is 50% hellenic, 50% latin. Will that influence how much manpower is available for hellenic units?
    Chronicles of Cimmeria - A Kimmerios Bosporos AAR (EB2)
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Amazing work Causeless! Apart from the fact I was confused and thought you were going to translate the mod it looks fantastic. On the culture distribution that is also something I would like to know, as it would be nice to have recently captured settlements full of non romans, meaning you'd either have to give them citizenship through building, or colonize it with Romans to fund making an army in the province. I do believe he said it should be possible but I dont think he was too sure yet, I guess we'll have to wait until further down the line.
    Vespasian's own: Up the Augusta! For Cato!

    AE: Battle Balancing and BAI.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Beautiful !!!!! A huge step forward for Rome 2 and Atila indeed =)
    +rep for that

  8. #8

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Awesome, something many have been dreaming of since Mitch released his previews!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    I want to ask the same question that I asked a while back without the intention of being pushy:
    Wow, I really like all what I'm reading here about this new POPULOUS system! It seems like a major revolution - great work!

    I don't want to go crazy here, but since you are "playing" with numbers... and there are a LOT of players here who would like to see more or less realistic unit sizes.... Would it be reasonably easy to add some kind of "alternative unit size modifier" or "presentation mechanic" that doesn't actually modify the unit size but only pretends to do so? I know this seems like gibberish, but to play with realistic unit sizes is obviously difficult, because the battle engine is not able to represent them. What I suggest is that a unit of 160 (ultra unit size)/ 80 (medium unit size) etc. will always be represented and calculated as 480 or 500, especially in the battle outcome... The calculations of your new populous system would also use this number of 480 or 500 rather than the 160 (ultra), 120 (large), 80 (medium), or 56 (small)... I remember that in Rome Total War there were some issues with population when playing with higher unit sizes, but with this mechanic it would ALWAYS be the same system no matter what.

    In other words: if you actually count the men of a unit in battle they will have the same number as in vanilla (e.g. 160) or whatever mod you use with adjusted unit sizes, but in the text (battle outcome, populous system, unit info, army info) a cohort has more like the actual number of a cohort - 480 or 500 and all calculations will be made with this number and not the 160.

    If on the battlefield 1 man dies in the battle outcome this wouldn't give:
    killed: 1 - left:159,
    but instead something like:
    killed: 3 - left:477 or 497
    This way "in appearance" we could have armies with up till 10000 soldiers (with vanilla 20 units/army) which allows for a real legion + auxilia, extraordinarii, name it up under one general.

    I think the only really necessary visible changes this needs as far as the vanilla game is concerned would be a different number/ calculation in the battle outcome and the army (& unit) info. As it is possible to turn off the unit numbers in the unit cards already, that aspect may be of less importance.
    Maybe an interesting idea for a future add-on someday when you have more time?... If the idea appeals to you at all, that is...

    Anyway, your population system looks awesome, can't wait to test it!^^

  10. #10
    Junaidi83 de Bodemloze's Avatar Dont Mess With Me
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    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Hmm the feature itself only work for player , since AI clearly dont know or able to handle this feature as well, last time i wrote this, Magnar itself clearly stated that the work was meant for human player, since most of the feature is UI click stuff.

    While the feature itself not boost CAI or BAI (like Petellius did).Its do however add some very deep immersion to the game itself, for example some province if build with A,B,C combinaton resulted on xxx population growth, or sacked now worth as not only its bring slave (man power ,and slave army go figure it out using modder personal view).

    Anyways this nice feature should be implemented in most hosted mod, since each mod maybe have different perspective regarding man power army.
    Last edited by Junaidi83 de Bodemloze; January 18, 2016 at 06:04 AM.
    Modding is like accursed wine, you try a sip and you ended empty the whole glass
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking1978 View Post
    I want to ask the same question that I asked a while back without the intention of being pushy:
    Not entirely sure it is possible but it was something I wondered myself. However, AE uses 240 men units so it tends to be half the real size anyway, which makes it a little more realistic.
    Vespasian's own: Up the Augusta! For Cato!

    AE: Battle Balancing and BAI.

  12. #12

    Icon1 Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking1978 View Post
    I want to ask the same question that I asked a while back without the intention of being pushy:
    It should be possible. You can mod the size of each unit easily right now, also - it's stored separately from the actual unit sizes in-game. Look in scripts_libs/lib_manpower_unit_counts.lua

    Also note - you didn't ask me that question. I didn't make Populous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeion View Post
    Brilliant, great work!

    Will, or can, this be tied in with the culture distribution within a province? Say the culture is 50% hellenic, 50% latin. Will that influence how much manpower is available for hellenic units?
    I couldn't say for sure. I'll definitely investigate it at some point, however.
    Last edited by Causeless; January 18, 2016 at 02:00 PM.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

  13. #13
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    It looks like it is raining population mods lately rep!
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    It looks like it is raining population mods lately rep!
    Clever minds all come to the same conclusions in the end
    Last edited by Causeless; January 18, 2016 at 06:38 PM.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

  15. #15

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    I don't want to go crazy here, but since you are "playing" with numbers... and there are a LOT of players here who would like to see more or less realistic unit sizes.... Would it be reasonably easy to add some kind of "alternative unit size modifier" or "presentation mechanic" that doesn't actually modify the unit size but only pretends to do so? I know this seems like gibberish, but to play with realistic unit sizes is obviously difficult, because the battle engine is not able to represent them. What I suggest is that a unit of 160 (ultra unit size)/ 80 (medium unit size) etc. will always be represented and calculated as 480 or 500, especially in the battle outcome... The calculations of your new populous system would also use this number of 480 or 500 rather than the 160 (ultra), 120 (large), 80 (medium), or 56 (small)... I remember that in Rome Total War there were some issues with population when playing with higher unit sizes, but with this mechanic it would ALWAYS be the same system no matter what.
    To go into this a bit more, the script includes the sizes of the units as of now, but we set those values in the DB, as well. The two should be in line no matter how they are calculating it, as I see it. The population script will only really be counting men of military age and not really total population. You seem to want higher numbers for the pop scripts so it basically allows larger unit sizes - but those are easily adjustable. Anyone doing that should probably have minimum modding experience, but it's really opening a file and changing values which are pretty easily identifiable. AS the script is now. I do think it may change a bit there, but Causeless knows better than I.

    Hmm the feature itself only work for player , since AI clearly dont know or able to handle this feature as well, last time i wrote this, Magnar itself clearly stated that the work was meant for human player, since most of the feature is UI click stuff.
    The script here is a bit different from that one. Causeless can maybe answer better than me, once again, but I think that his script avoids masking UI or anything so it should apply to both AI and human. Mitch's did the same, if I'm not mistaken. He mentioned the AI handling his script well. But I'm kind of speaking outside my lane on this part.


  16. #16

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Sadly, as far as I'm aware, masking to the UI may be required in some areas. I have ideas to allow greater AI interoperability but it's a low priority compared to the rest of the features.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

  17. #17

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Could you tie in the AI artificially using increased unit costs or reducing their army limit to 1 when they are low on manpower?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    Could you tie in the AI artificially using increased unit costs or reducing their army limit to 1 when they are low on manpower?
    I'm pretty sure I can disable AI recruitment completely, but I haven't tested this extensively. The difficulty is moreso in handling the rest of the mod.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

  19. #19

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    @ Causeless, Petellius, & ABH2

    Thanks for answering my question so soon, Causeless. Also want to thank you guys for your feedback, Petellius & ABH2. I couldn't respond earlier.

    I am aware, Causeless, that I have asked this question to Mitch earlier, not too you. I wasn't very clear in my post about that, now that I look at it. I told you I didn't want to be pushy, because I didn't want to divert your attention too much from your project. On the other hand, as I see the overwriting of UI and adding an alternative unit size list, I thought I could not let the opportunity pass...

    Concerning the unit sizes, after reading your script & explanation I understand that it should be possible to use your new manpower sizes (lib) for the overwriting of unit sizes in the info panels, unit cards and battle results. I expected that much. But would the addition of the multiplying factor and rounding for battle deaths cause any problems? I noticed that you already used some script to round numbers, so I guess it would need something similar?

    What I mean is: an actual unit size (db): 160 / manpower size (lib): 480 would need a factor of 3 without any rounding... Probably means not much additional hassle?
    This is what I initially thought to be the size of a cohort. But the actual number (officers etc. included) is more like 500. (for details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lIpAYpAvB4)

    This means: An actual unit size (db): 160 / manpower size (lib): 500, would need a factor of 3.125. This kind of factor obviously needs rounding when men are killed or added (battle, attrition, replenishment)...
    Last edited by Viking1978; January 19, 2016 at 03:00 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Population Mod: "Citizenship" Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking1978 View Post
    @ Causeless, Petellius, & ABH2

    Thanks for answering my question so soon, Causeless. Also want to thank you guys for your feedback, Petellius & ABH2. I couldn't respond earlier.

    I am aware, Causeless, that I have asked this question to Mitch earlier, not too you. I wasn't very clear in my post about that, now that I look at it. I told you I didn't want to be pushy, because I didn't want to divert your attention too much from your project. On the other hand, as I see the overwriting of UI and adding an alternative unit size list, I thought I could not let the opportunity pass...

    Concerning the unit sizes, after reading your script & explanation I understand that it should be possible to use your new manpower sizes (lib) for the overwriting of unit sizes in the info panels, unit cards and battle results. I expected that much. But would the addition of the multiplying factor and rounding for battle deaths cause any problems? I noticed that you already used some script to round numbers, so I guess it would need something similar?

    What I mean is: an actual unit size (db): 160 / manpower size (lib): 480 would need a factor of 3 without any rounding... Probably means not much additional hassle?
    This is what I initially thought to be the size of a cohort. But the actual number (officers etc. included) is more like 500. (for details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lIpAYpAvB4)

    This means: An actual unit size (db): 160 / manpower size (lib): 500, would need a factor of 3.125. This kind of factor obviously needs rounding when men are killed or added (battle, attrition, replenishment)...
    Ultimately the value being stored isn't actually tied to the actual unit size, so you are free to set it to anything.
    modificateurs sans frontières

    Developer for Ancient Empires
    (scripter, developed tools for music modding, tools to import custom battle maps into campaign)

    Lead developer of Attila Citizenship Population Mod
    (joint 1st place for Gameplay Mods in 2016 Modding Awards)

    Assisted with RMV2 Converter
    (2nd place for Warscape Engine Resources in 2016 Modding Awards)

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