People of Rome 2 (P++) - Main Discussion

[The Wolfman]

incredible... I WILL sub this.

[Magnar]

UPDATE: We are now beginning internal single player tests while we continue to work on MP compatibility and some other new features

[Magnar]

UPDATED OP with explanation of confirmed mechanics

[vpapako]

Magnificent news! Are you planning to also use this to emphasize the uniqueness of certain factions? i.e. Carthage has few recruitable citizens, therefore mercenaries, hellenistic factions have mostly foreign (non Greek) recruitment pools etc.

[Magas of Cyrene]

Thanks for the update, it looks great. Ditto to vpapako's question.

[Magnar]

Magnificent news! Are you planning to also use this to emphasize the uniqueness of certain factions? i.e. Carthage has few recruitable citizens, therefore mercenaries, hellenistic factions have mostly foreign (non Greek) recruitment pools etc.

The vanilla implementation will be pretty basic so not sure if we will go to that depth.

The VV implementation will try and reflect that as much as possible as well as starting foreign pops in the successor (seleucid and ptolemey) regions.

[Maetharin]

May I suggest the following?
For Successor states I´d Introduce the 4 classes:
1) Nobles
2) Macedonians
3) Greeks
4) Natives

For Carthage I´d make it:
1)Nobles
2)Citizens
3)Foreigners
4)Subjects

Are you planning to also use this to emphasize the uniqueness of certain factions? i.e. Carthage has few recruitable citizens

Concerning this, maybe population proportions could have an influence on different economic factors?
Like for Carthage citizen number in contrast to nobles influences trade in direct proportion. Like 10% bonus to trade for 2/1 and 20% for 3/1.
Respective numbers would have to be balanced of course.

As a last point a few questions:

Will unit replenishment have direct influence on populations?
Will men from dissolved units be reintroduced into the population?
If so, in their respective classes?
If so, will it be possible to bolster one population with units originally from other populations?
The Successors f.e. often gave greek mercenaries or citizens of greek subject polis the macedonian citizenship to bolster the numbers of their phalanx.
It would be too complex to make this a choice, but maybe greeks in general could be dissolved as macedonians

Thx in advance for the answers
Best regards

[ivanpera]

Yes all pops will become foreign when you conquer a settlment and you will need to build your citizen pop up there from scratch

Does that mean that when you recapture one of your settlements from the enemy all your previous citizens become foreigners?

[Magnar]

May I suggest the following?
For Successor states I´d Introduce the 4 classes:
1) Nobles
2) Macedonians
3) Greeks
4) Natives

For Carthage I´d make it:
1)Nobles
2)Citizens
3)Foreigners
4)Subjects


Concerning this, maybe population proportions could have an influence on different economic factors?
Like for Carthage citizen number in contrast to nobles influences trade in direct proportion. Like 10% bonus to trade for 2/1 and 20% for 3/1.
Respective numbers would have to be balanced of course.

As a last point a few questions:

Will unit replenishment have direct influence on populations?
Will men from dissolved units be reintroduced into the population?
If so, in their respective classes?
If so, will it be possible to bolster one population with units originally from other populations?
The Successors f.e. often gave greek mercenaries or citizens of greek subject polis the macedonian citizenship to bolster the numbers of their phalanx.
It would be too complex to make this a choice, but maybe greeks in general could be dissolved as macedonians

Thx in advance for the answers
Best regards

All good questions there.

Unfortunately, we can't answer any of them yet because they relate to things we haven't fully confirmed working yet or if they are possible. We will keep your ideas in mind as we move forward and see what we can accomidate.

As for the naming of the classes for those cultures, we haven't yet planned how it will work with them. However the 4th class for all factions will be foreigners with only the word for them changing. The other 3 classes will depend on how the historical class divisions would best interact with the way we have set up the mechanics. Our current focus with classes is to get the mechanics and base growth, pop and unit values working using Rome as the guinea pig. Once we get it working nicely we will look at what we can do for the other cultures.

[Magnar]

Does that mean that when you recapture one of your settlements from the enemy all your previous citizens become foreigners?

Yes that is correct.

We don't save the data for previous owners as taht would be a lot of extra saved data potentially number of faction(100+) x number of regions (150+) x 4 classes ie (60,000 - 100,000 values). Keeping it all as foreigners makes it much more important to defend your developed settlements and makes the foreigner growth a more important issue to worry about.

[Maetharin]

Thx for the quick answer.

In regards of the classes, I think it would be better to have the third class be the /foreigner/ class.
I think it´s more fitting to have foreigners higher in class than subject people.

Let me put it in perspective.
If we have the 4 classes:
/Noble/
/Citizens/
/Foreigner/
/Subjects/

Roman:
Patricians
Plebs
Proletarii
Perigrini

Carthaginian:
Nobles
Citizens
Foreigner
Lybians

Macedonian:
Nobles
Macedonians
Greeks
Natives

Greek:
Epilektoi
Politai
Metoikai
Subjects


In Roman context, Perigrini often were in the same positions as Natives were in Hellenistic states.
In the provinces they were a subject people, whereas in Italy they were the Italic citizens or lived in Rome.
Proletarii were similarly treated as Greeks and other foreigners in Macedonian states, they lived there, but were mostly unpolitical, unless incited to.
I know the terminology isn´t correct, but that´s why I "slashed" the classes, they represent status more than actual meaning.

In Macedonian context, Macedonians became the term for Macedonian citizenship & their role in the phalanx rather than ethnicity, they were similar to the roman Plebs.
In Greek context, the names are just ripe for the taking

Sadly I have no idea about naming the Carthaginian classes
I hope with this I have convinced you of the benefits of my approach, or at least given you some material for thought.

Best regards

Edit: Would it be possible to lock certain buildings to the number of the citizens population class?
New cities need both capital and people to populate it.

Edit 2: For the AI, how about giving them a classless population with less impact on the economy and recruitment if it gets depleted?

[Magnar]

It will be 3 local classes of that culture and 1 foreign class which will be subjects and foreign combined.

[VINC.XXIII]

I don't think citizens should be opposed to proletarii in roman context, if the purpose is to reflect military manpower.

The men eligibles to become legionnaries in camillan system are the adsidui.

Proletarii also are citizens, but are too poor to get serious equipements.

While roman citizenship was given to entire communities or to social groups of individuals who often were close roman allies, and often were equivalent of adsidui in their own societies(and inherent censitarian divisions), same those being not granted roman citizenship(or connubium right) were too adsidui according their financial capacity.


Concretly its much more pertinent to put "adsidui" instead "plebs", the first term describe a social reality that embrace all Italics(so romans, capuans, umbrians, etruscans...etc).

[Maetharin]

It might be a little historically inaccurate, but I think Proletarii nicely contrasts with Plebs.
Although they were also part of the plebs, the social reality set them apart from "proper" Plebeians.

Additionally, if asidui also covered socii it would be counterproductive, since socii units are not as good as roman units in DeI and I also think in Vae Victis.
They would be recruited from the Perigrini if I inferred correctly.

[VINC.XXIII]

It might be a little historically inaccurate, but I think Proletarii nicely contrasts with Plebs.
Although they were also part of the plebs, the social reality set them apart from "proper" Plebeians.

Additionally, if asidui also covered socii it would be counterproductive, since socii units are not as good as roman units in DeI and I also think in Vae Victis.
They would be recruited from the Perigrini if I inferred correctly.

I just suggested names based on roman ordines. Normally its like following:

-equites(adsidui eligibles for mounted military service)
-"normal" adsidui: for roman infantry
-proletarii: excluded in camillan system, but recruited when roman army became professional(Marius reform, and sometimes mobilised before)

In fact its much more complex, but I try to resume for game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equites

In the first half of the article there is a table with classes/military assignations

[Don_Diego]

This is gonna be epic!! My only worry is Magnar, Litharion and Dresden also getting hired by CA next...

[Maetharin]

This is gonna be epic!! My only worry is Magnar, Litharion and Dresden also getting hired by CA next...

Oh please, at least finish this project before accepting any such offers

Btw, would it be possible to have an enfranchismemt option for foreigners?

If so, I'd tie it to the regional Capital City line, add a public order malus effect and allocate these at the proportion of 1/3 to the second and third class respectively

This of course would have to happen in certain numbers.
We couldn't enfranchise all of the foreigners at once,
I'd suggest 1000 per batch with a malus of 10, reducing this effect with civil technology

Maybe it could be tied to your faction leader,
the effect of enfranchisment were in most cases dependent on political figures

Best regards

[Linke]

From Iranians I could imagine:
Parthians/nomads/hill people
persians/citizens/iranians
nobles (same no matter what really)
and foreigners entirely

or for a later period more like
azadan/nobles
dehqan/low nobles (out of Rome II timeframe though, replace with warriors maybe, gundan?)
paigan/peasants
foreigners

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Right off reading up on this for 4 hours I didn't find anything from Romans writers to the names but the very basic stuff which was Warrior Noblity, Chief/Kings and men of art being the Druids,Bards and Craftsmen but I did find an answer in early Irish/Celtic literature of 600AD so you can give this a go.

1) Upper Class/Aire under Féni law,there are only four notable noble classes – aire désa,aire ardd, aire túise, aire forgill But I think putting down Aire may do for the game.
2) Middle Class/ BothacA semi‐free dependant occasionally mentioned in the early Irish law tracts. He is housed in a both ‘hut’ by his lord in return for his labour. He is on the same social level as a fuidir. The fuidir stands inside two principal frontier zones of early Irish society, the zone of the half-free lying between the free and the unfree and the zone of subordinate kin between full kin and non-kin. Evidence suggests that the fuidir/Bothach class embraces a wide variety of persons with very different economic relationships to their lords: the exceptionally fortunate had kin-lands of their own and paid regular food-renders like a base client; the ‘fuidir of land’ received his holding from his lord and retained it only as long as he remained his dependant; the landless fuidirwas a labourer on the lord's land. There is a gradation from the relative independence and fixed obligations of the fuidir with five holdings to, first, the much more dependent fuidir of land, and finally to the landless labourer whose obligations were variable at the behest of the lord
3) Lower Class/ Senchleithe Life at the bottom rung of medieval society is not easy or healthy. In times of war peasants are forced from their farms and drafted into levies, and if they are lucky, given some kind of simple weapon to fight with. Unsurprisingly, Senchleithe are undisciplined troops who are better at fleeing than they are fighting.
4) Foreigners / Waulle-"land of the Romans or foreigners”

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Right this is for Gaul
1) Upper Class/ Rix= upper class Royal familiars and Gaulish Kings and possible Queens that were under the Vergobret.
2) Middle Class/ pagi=The fundamental unit of Gallic politics was the tribe, which itself consisted of one or more of what Caesar called "pagi".
3) Lower Class/ civitates= These administrative groupings would be taken over by the Romans in their system of local control, and these civitates would also be the basis of France's eventual division into ecclesiastical bishoprics and dioceses, which would remain in place — with slight changes — until the French Revolution.
4) Foreigners / Waulle="land of the Romans or foreigners”