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Thread: Two-handers - Historical Question

  1. #1

    Default Two-handers - Historical Question

    So it occurred to me that the Thracians are, I think, the only people in the game who employ more or less dedicated two-handed weapons (not counting pikes), namely the falx and rhomphaia and variations. A shield is a big deal, and until the advent of heavy plate armor that could compensate two-handers were probably not especially efficient. A shield is (can be) also cheap, whereas a big piece of forged metal generally isn't.

    On the other hand (!) these two-handed weapons were obviously used to some good effect, and became quite notorious. So my question is does anyone know a) Why these warriors simply didn't use a sword/spear and board like everyone else if that was more effective and/or b) If it was actually advantageous to use two-handers in some situations why other people didn't use them? What would be your guess? I know most of these weapons developed from farming implements but that goes for one-handed versions also so the question remains.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Two-handers - Historical Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Camcolit View Post
    So it occurred to me that the Thracians are, I think, the only people in the game who employ more or less dedicated two-handed weapons (not counting pikes), namely the falx and rhomphaia and variations. A shield is a big deal, and until the advent of heavy plate armor that could compensate two-handers were probably not especially efficient. A shield is (can be) also cheap, whereas a big piece of forged metal generally isn't.

    On the other hand (!) these two-handed weapons were obviously used to some good effect, and became quite notorious. So my question is does anyone know a) Why these warriors simply didn't use a sword/spear and board like everyone else if that was more effective and/or b) If it was actually advantageous to use two-handers in some situations why other people didn't use them? What would be your guess? I know most of these weapons developed from farming implements but that goes for one-handed versions also so the question remains.
    interesting questions. reminds me of anglo-saxon housecarls. i think this mode of fighting derives from local cultural and religious practices and social position of those involved that generate expectations on the part of those expected to man this shock contingents and society at large. i don't think it is a matter of utility of weapon only, though that certainly is a very important part of it. also though, acting/fighting in a way that others won't, serves to reinforce the privileged position of this group in a given community and would eventually become an established practice/tradition attached to a group/class, and these, once embedded, are hard to shake (even when they outlive their original utility).

  3. #3

    Default Re: Two-handers - Historical Question

    Lack of shield, or even armor, might not be that crippling if you can defend yourself in hand-to-hand. I mean, if you are skilled. Most often it'd mean belonging to the elite who can focus on their fighting skills instead of working the fields. Missiles are going to be more dangerous, but depending on your deployment they might not be. Historical ranged weapons didn't have great accuracy.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.


  4. #4

    Default Re: Two-handers - Historical Question

    @Sarkiss - Sounds like a good breakdown to me. That's my suspicion also, though I still think it's interesting how distinctive these troops are on the map. I don't know much about ancient history outside Europe but I'd be curious to know if ancient people in other regions used similar two-handed bladed weapons.

    @SataPatis - The skill factor is true, but other elites fought with shields. I just find it interesting how this doctrine of two-handed shock troops developed here specifically and not, according to the EB recruitment at least, anywhere else. On a gameplay note it makes the Rhomphaia Bearers the coolest unit in the game bar none in my opinion
    Last edited by Camcolit; February 04, 2021 at 11:43 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Two-handers - Historical Question

    About the threat of missiles - nothing is stopping a fighter from carrying a shield up to the place where melee will take place. Or better yet, having dedicated shield-bearers if it can be afforded.

    Not basing this on anything, just throwing ideas around.
    Last edited by Rad; February 05, 2021 at 11:09 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Two-handers - Historical Question

    In reality, those two handed warriors likely carried a shield plus one handed weapon with them. The latter are generalist weapons that all soldiers needed one time or another, while two handed weapons are a extremely niche role that very few cultures in antiquity seems to have employed. Those elite thracians could have followers carrying their backup weapons for them, including javelins and slings.

    EB is a game and M2TW has a lots of limitations, don't assume what is inside EB must be a completely accurate depiction. It is a representation given the available knowledge and game engine limitations.
    Last edited by Hellenikon; February 05, 2021 at 01:24 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Two-handers - Historical Question

    Just like the Armenian royal foot guard - in game, they're armed with bow and arrow, spear and shield. Someone gave an explanation that they have servants to carry their spears and shields while they shoot. Seems fine to me.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Two-handers - Historical Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Just like the Armenian royal foot guard - in game, they're armed with bow and arrow, spear and shield. Someone gave an explanation that they have servants to carry their spears and shields while they shoot. Seems fine to me.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Two-handers - Historical Question

    Somewhat related but the Chaldean Pikemen(?) have alot of courage to fight without using shields despite being phalanx pikemen.

    Although they do wear bronze cuirasses, that isn't really an effective protection against arrows unless the idea that "a row of pikes actualy wards against arrows" applies to them as well.

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