Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia

[Teutonic]

@ Teutonic: Yes. what I mean when I say Knight is elite soldier like men-at-arms. They weren't armored with best European armor, but they had one OF the best. There could be a translation in Serbia for men at arms and it could be "Oklopnici". But it's rarely used and most common name for both people with knight title and elite warrior with heavy armor are called "Vitezovi" which means Knights. And name Knights is shorter and better than Men-at-Arms. Size of a country does not matter when it's develpoed/ Look at Germany vs Russia in WW1. Size of land does not matter ! And for that time in mid and late 14th century Serbia could afford a very good number of soldiers and equipment for that time

So the Serb heavy troops were Men-at-Arms- like the other 1st class soldiers in West and Central Europe. This makes sense.

In a feudal society the amount of good arable land was important for how many knights could be supported. But a state that lacked this could compensate if it had other income (e.g. Serbia's mining) and arm, armour and pay soldiers anyway. Just many of them will have to be retainers instead of landed.

[SerbianWOLF]

Yes. If translated to western sayings it can be men-at-arms but Serbs call those Knights So to avoid confusion once again. Knights were called those who really had knight title and ALSO those that were armored with one of the best western armors !

[Teutonic]

Can I ask those who know, in 14/15 century were the heavy Serbian cavalry, armed in heaviest European style, actually called knights? Elsewhere in Europe they were called Men-at-Arms and only some of them were knights.

Also, even if the word in Serbian used for these troops means "knight" in English, were these troops actually officially holding a title of knighthood? Or were they basically Men-at-Arms?

I am wondering because the Serbs fielded pretty significant numbers of these troops and always felt unlikely that such a small state could support so many "knights".

Just an illustration: for the 1415 campaign, ending in the battle of Agincourt, the English begun with 2 536 men at arms. Of these 45 were dukes, barons, earls, banerets. 140 were knights, and the vast majority were esquires. So less than 1 in 10 had a rank of knight or above.

[Teutonic]

Yeah, looks like it's a matter of semantics- calling the same thing by different names.
Just trying to understand this part of the Serbian forces in late 14 and 15th centuries. How were they recruited and maintained and by whom? Were different nobles joining their own men to their overall lord's personal force, or was it central like the Black Army in Hungary? Things like that.

[SerbianWOLF]

Yeah, looks like it's a matter of semantics- calling the same thing by different names.
Just trying to understand this part of the Serbian forces in late 14 and 15th centuries. How were they recruited and maintained and by whom? Were different nobles joining their own men to their overall lord's personal force, or was it central like the Black Army in Hungary? Things like that.

When it comes to those things. Not very much is known. Serbian military organization was very similar to Byzantine one, so that can be a clue. All people and soldiers in serbia answered to king/tsar. Nobles probably had some of their men serving to them and together via Nobles to the King. But largest and strongest force answered directly to King/Tsar.

If you are really interested about those stuff maybe wikipedia can say something about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Serbian_army

[Teutonic]

When it comes to those things. Not very much is known. Serbian military organization was very similar to Byzantine one, so that can be a clue. All people and soldiers in serbia answered to king/tsar. Nobles probably had some of their men serving to them and together via Nobles to the King. But largest and strongest force answered directly to King/Tsar.

If you are really interested about those stuff maybe wikipedia can say something about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Serbian_army

Actually I did look at this page on wikipedia today


And yes, it was strange to take away the Moldavian Warriors from Bulgaria and give them to unlikely faction like Serbia. Either both or only Bulgaria should have them (+ Poland and Hungary of course).

[FrozenmenSS]

After the latest build the Moldavian warriors instead of giving them to Bulgaria they were given to Serbia. I hope its fixed with the next build.

[SerbianWOLF]

Yes. Moldavian Warriors should not be located in Serbian roster.

[Branchez93]

Too bad my PC can't handle Attila. I would really much love to play this mod. Especially Serbian faction.

[LEG-IV]

Oh man, this mod will rock!!!

[FreeMayk]

I am eager to play with Serbia!
Split province its too big. In that region needs port-city(trade town) of Ragusa.

[Filips Augustus]

Let's keep the discussion civilised guys, there seems to be an increase in hostilities in the forums these last days :/. Also this is the thread about Serbia, not Wallachia!

[Ltd.]

I am in the process of adding a couple of additional units to Serbia and I already redid several of the existing units with new and higher quality assets, so I would say Serbia will receive a major facelift in the next update. stay tuned for a new preview hopefully soon.

[keksimir]

This looks amazing! Are you able to tell us when this new update is set to launch? We are waiting with great anticipation!

[Visarion]

Uuuuhhhhhh nice! Hope you used those icons and church depictions!

[Ltd.]

So here are some new unit additions to the Serbian roster. Edited the first post with the reworked serbian units as well.
Another change to the roster is , that the auxiliary swordsmen unit has boon moved to the early era / tier 1 while the bashtiniks unit has been moved to the high era / tier 2.

Early Era

Croatian Cavalry (to be added to Hungary and Serbia)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

High Era

Crossbowmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spearmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Late Era



Bashtinik Spearmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Serbian Gussars

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

King

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Locus_Devium]

Superb shields for the early era.

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[Filips Augustus]

Ah they look great Ltd. The faction will get some more units as well I presume?

[Knight2708]

Wow those are a ton of awesome additions. Great job! The awesome great helm of the high and late period king and the colorful late period crossbowmen are some of my favorite additions.

There are a couple of relatively minor things I do feel the need to point out though:
Almost all of the Bashtinik spearmen have what looks to be exactly the same mustache which makes them look a bit weird.
The armors of the Croatian cavalry all look very similar, which seems somewhat odd for an early period unit which tend to be the least uniform.
Many of the new tier 1 shields seem a bit too bright and over saturated imho especially due to the stark contrast with their very dark mail armor.
Finally wouldn't it make more sense for the high and especially late period knight/vlastela and bodyguard to use the larger, heavier lances that most other later knights use and newer forms of horse armor? For a unit that is already so heavily westernized it seems a bit odd to not go all the way and adopt these as well.

[Vakko]

The new additions are amazing! Glad you guys added more vibrant colors to bring the units to life and give them more of a professional army look.