Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Empire of Nicaea

[AlexiosThe1st]

Or perhaps have two distinct varangian units?
Looking something like this:



The 2-handed unit looking far more Norse-like, and then the more Romanized Pelekyphoroi bearing the shield and adopting a more defensive set of stats.

[command_codes]

Can't wait to face them on the field with my Latin Empire

[Slytacular]

Here are some better examples of Byzantine soldiers:

Bunch of 14th century images in this link.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...sses_Chronicle

Late 12th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Late 13th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Early 14th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

14th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

another 14th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and another 14th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Didn't Varangian Guards stopped being foreigners after the 12th century and then completely undocumented by the 14th? Besides all of that, I have no idea where these illustrators get their sources on the image of the 1230 Varangian Guard above my post?

[AlexiosThe1st]

Here are some better examples of Byzantine soldiers:

Bunch of 14th century images in this link.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...sses_Chronicle

Late 12th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Late 13th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Early 14th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

14th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

another 14th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and another 14th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Didn't Varangian Guards stopped being foreigners after the 12th century and then completely undocumented by the 14th? Besides all of that, I have no idea where these illustrators get their sources on the image of the 1230 Varangian Guard above my post?

I do believe that most of these images are military saints, correct? If that is the case, how truthful are the representations and how much of what they're wearing is romanticized? Of course hard to know, and seeing as there are few other sources to go off it may be the best we have. But still something to consider.

Ltd. It is very true they possess an appeal in their functional attire. I do not question the effectiveness of what they wear, only I personally find Byzantine flair to be more appealing
The only picture of the Varangian unit that I've seen has been in this faction preview, so I've been going off of that.

Both of your proposals sound great (new unit/old unit with Nordic and Byzantine). In light of the fact, as Slytacular notes, that the Varangians are hardly mentioned later on, it may be best to have the two? Just to get all we can out of the Varangians before they disappear
I'm inclined to go with the new unit to add a wee bit more variety to the roster but that's just me

[Ltd.]

@ Alexios : Well, I wouldn`t call them plain , to be honest. As they will be available from the very start of the mod, they are in fact one of the most heavily armored units you can get from the get - go. They have long mail or mail and lamellar, coif for the necks, nasal helmets or more byzantine styled ones, arm and leg protection, so the most armor you can have for the beginning of the 13th century, apart from knights They also don` t have to look the most badass of the badass, they have to be functional. I`m also not sure whether I have shown the very latest of how they look, so the pictures you have seen might not correspond to how they actually look now.

@ Kjertesvein : I actually loved both versions of those varangians, and always recruited the native ones as they were more available (and a lot more useful with their shields, in terms of stats) but the mercenary version of them .... oh yeah, they really had that aura surrounding them, their fame preceded them and I considered them as the real deal.
I haven` t yet decided whether to make a second, native, varangian unit.
Perhaps it would be best to have in the same unit variations of more nordic looking stuff and more byzantine one as well. We`ll see

[Styl2000]

I thing that you should keep both units even though I don't really know that much about Pelekyphoroi but it would be really interesting to have a defensive Varangian-like unit and then have Varangians as shock inf. to destroy the enemy.

[Styl2000]

Didn't Varangian Guards stopped being foreigners after the 12th century and then completely undocumented by the 14th? Besides all of that, I have no idea where these illustrators get their sources on the image of the 1230 Varangian Guard above my post?

well after the first fall of the City they hadn't been in use but inside the City there were people who referred to them selves as Varaghians and if I recall correctly some of them defended effectively the City from the ottomans.

also if possible I'd like them not to be too OP but to be strong even in later era. That could be achieved by a tec. that makes them like from early era to late era. I really don't want to lose them nether I wand them to be ineffective later on.

P.S. when I say City I mean Constantinople.

[Styl2000]

hire is a link about Byzantine units, but it's not only about that era and it is in Greeks
http://eclass31.weebly.com/betaupsil...l#.VrTPIuFumZ8
if you wand me to translate anything then gust tell me

[Påsan]

I'd suggest a "rus mercenary unit" represented all those Kievan Rus/Scandinavians who in fact did not make it into the Guard, since the guard was an elite unit made up of the best foreigners with the Hird/Huscarl/Druzhina mentality of personal allegiance to the emperor.

There is a story repeated on several internet sites about a Scandinavian who was thought unfit to serve in the guard, but convinced the Emperor by slaying a bull with his axe.

The Varangian Guard was an élite group, and membership was not automatic. When Thormoth Indrithason wanted to join the Guard, the Emperor thought he was too small and said he would not be able to do a man’s job. He was convinced otherwise by seeing Thormoth slaughter an enormous bull, hewing its head off with a single stroke.

I have been completely unable to find a source for this though. However more importantly, the guard was not just a combat unit, they were stationed at the imperial palace when the emperor was at Constantinople, they were stationed at the center of the camp when the emperor was on campaign (Byzantines employed a three segment camp, the center was generally reserved for officers, elite units and guard units, the rest of the mercenaries generally found themselves on the third level*source: Byzantium at war*) and the participated on a long list of different ceremonial duties, including parades and court ceremonies. They were one of the three "guard" units but it is easily the most lasting of the three, the other two was mostly made up of sons of officers, nobility and the like (Archontopouloi) and one which seemed to do something akin to police/crowd control work armed with sticks.

Point of this is, that given the very ceremonial and visible nature of their duties, and given the riches the guard came across during their service, as evidenced by the Scandinavians returning as rich men including Hardrada who pretty much bought himself a kingship in Norway from his Byzantine wealth. It seems logical they they would be equipped with state of the art shiny armor. Byzantines loved to dazzle foreigners with their wealth, and the Guards, as part of the court ceremonies, must have reflected that.

(I wrote my Bachelor on the Guard back in the day, I got sources for these claims, but I dont have access to the writings right now)

So I'd say, if the mod creators deems it necessary, to have a split guard between "Rus Mercenaries" with their own native style, possibly an mid tier early Axe 'n Shield unit since the Niceans dont have that. And the actual Guard with the top of the line Byzantine armor of 1212. Current version looks pretty well-armored to me though.

[AlexiosThe1st]

Either that or the Pelekyphoroi

[AlexiosThe1st]

Though I'm slightly more in favor of the mid tier Rus mercs (ax and shield) in place of the Pelekyphoroi since they're already got another tier 3 sword and shield unit on the roster. And then that way we're a nice Nordic/Rus flavor to a unit and then the Varangians in the finest armor the Empire has to offer.

[AlexiosThe1st]

Sounds like a great proposal to me

[Ltd.]

Done

[Styl2000]

well I thing that by forming the empire you should have access to some units you didn't have before but before the first fall of the City, Byzantium had. That way it will look more like the Empire, and it will give you more reasons to form the empire.

[Ltd.]

Updated the first post with the reworked Varangian Guard and added the Rus Mercenaries. The varangians are now really the best infantry the empire of Nicaea can field in the early era.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[jim501]

Updated the first post with the reworked Varangian Guard and added the Rus Mercenaries. The varangians are now really the best infantry the empire of Nicaea can field in the early era.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What about these ?

[Ltd.]

Will the Cataphracts be a bow and shock cav?

No, they will not use bows. For the early era the empire relies on mercenary cumans and turkomans to cover their need for mounted archery.

What about these ?

What about them ?

[jim501]

What about them ?

I mean if there is any chance the Varangian armor will have variations like the ones pictured.

[WAR monger]

What about these ?

Where do you people even find these corny esoteric pictures to make vague demands with?

[jim501]

Where do you people even find these corny esoteric pictures to make vague demands with?

I dont know how corny or even "esoteric" are fitting words in this case but whatever.
There was no demand, I merely showed these pictures as inspiration for the helmets and asked if there is something similar, so calm your tits.