Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Second Bulgarian Tsardom

[lion8000]

The pictures that finix presented (at page 4) are from the link that I found and they are based on archeological evidence, from old Bulgarian books and from monastery icons in the current and former Bulgarian lands. The SBT was trading with Venice and Italy by sea, wit Byzantine and the East and with Western Europe through Hungary. In Bulgaria were found whole treasures from Venusian money. The Bulgarian armor and weapons (high era) were good as the western, like those of England and France (weapon damage and armor). By the way I don't think that those helmets like hockey masks were ever used bey the boyars. The Bulgarian boyars were pretty much knights. The high era Bulgarian tsar should look like the western kings, but with an different crown (maybe like that of tsar Ivan Asen II). His royal guard should look like that:

[Ltd.]

I really don´ t want to offend anyone, but ..... really.... ?!
OK so, would you please mind taking a look at page 4 of this very thread , at post #73 by finix , and kindly tell me if you do recognize those "hockey masks" in any of the drawings he posted.

I´m not sure if the bulgarian nobility played hockey back then but as we kind of agreed that bulgaria was influenced by Venice and other Western European countries, one would think that they used some italian bascinets, some would call them "altichiero" , and those "hockey masks" you were kind enough to point out are supposed to depict exactly such helmets.

I´m sure you are immensely knowledgeable about your history, but would you please care pointing out mistakes that are actually... mistakes ... next time ?

[lion8000]

Well I apologize about the helmet, I didn't recognized it in the small image.

[Slepeca]

Can you make the Bolyars a seperate unit ,appart from the Tsar ,to give the bulgarian roster a little bit more distinct feel to it ? And make the Tsar/General's bodygard just something like "Tsar's guard" or "Tsarevets guard"?

[Ltd.]

Here I present the latest of how the units of the Second Bulgarian Tsardom look like in order for finix to be able to create new cards if he wishes:

Archers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Heavy Archers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bulgarian Brigands

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Auxiliary

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Militia Spearmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spearmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hooked Spearmen (with hooked spears and other polearms)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Axemen (medium - heavy infantry having the advantage of dogs)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Swordsmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Heavy Spearmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pronoia Cavalry

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Tsar and Bodyguards

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

HIGH ERA Units

Crossbowmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bulgarian Heavy Infantry

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bolyars

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cuman Units

Cuman Light HA

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cuman Heavy HA

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cuman Heavy Lancers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Updated the first post with the new units.

[warman222]

Looks awesome man! We should probably update the OP with these changes if you wanna get on that.


EDIT: Also apparently Tsardoms Total War released a revamp preview for the Bulgarians as well! What are the odds! XD

[Slepeca]

Been following that mod for 5-6 years ,never thought that it would be released . On a serious note ,hope the guys finish it ,and it gets played.

[lufc2806]

Amazing stuff, are you planning on overhauling any of the other factions?

[Teutonic]

Nice! Can't wait for 5 May. + rep

[lion8000]

Ltd. I really like your work. I don't want to be annoying if you are on such units, but you have to add some high era Boyar units with armor like the Hungarian knights and give some blue color to the other Boyar units(there will be more hing era Boyars right). By the way I mentioned before that the high era Boyars instead of boots their feet were armored like those of the western knights).
By the way what has happened with the old look of the Bulgarian Heavy Spearman, that unit was looking insane (all in the gameplay videos were saying that they are one of the best looking unit in the mod). The same with the old Bulgarian Heavy Infantry unit- it was looking so cool. I hope that they will stay. And the fraction icon must be red not brown (as I mentioned before the brown color was very unlikely for medieval Bulgaria).

[Kjertesvein]

@Ltd MFW I open this thread

What's your favorite unit?

These brown looking armour looks pretty cool, although I do not know the name of it.
http://i.imgur.com/2eoqdLL.jpg

I like what you did here, the diversity in weapons. ;D That is awesome. "YES!"
http://i.imgur.com/WpCqEzc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Pw74o80.jpg

you have to add some high era Boyar units with armor like the Hungarian knights and give some blue color to the other Boyar units(there will be more hing era Boyars right). By the way I mentioned before that the high era Boyars instead of boots their feet were armored like those of the western knights).

Hey lion8000. What are you evidence for:

• "high era boyar units" prevalent use of white armour?
• The prevalent use of sabatons by bulgarian knights?

Typically, the best source for this would be you showing statistical data from Bulgarian effigies. For example, for what ever reason, there is a distinct lack of sabatons in German effigies, while in England Sabatons were universal.


~Wille

[finix]

I think Ltd do a wonderful job, and I'm very grateful that he came back to rework this roster.
lion8000 there will be no more changes in SBT before 5 may, when will be the first public release. So do not push for changes, there will be no such. And then I would like to move on to other factions
Only when we have all the basic rosters, we can add new units to deeper roster like Border guards/Ambush Light Cavlry/, Tsarevets Guard/spear,sword or mounted unit/, Tatars /Archers or HA/, Chosen despots or call them Fruzhin's knights /late mounted knights with almost full western armor/ and on top of that SBT will rely on many western mercenaries and wallachian units for campaign.

[Ltd.]

hey guys

thanks for all opinions.
@Wille : I´m not sure I have a favourite unit but I guess I like the high era bolyars a lot. Actually I like them all, but that´s because I made them so to until I like how they looked Generally speaking the transitional armour period is my favourite so yeah.

Finix is right, I will add additional units to the roster, but this is what I had time for, for now, and I presented them here so that he can create new cards. Only some units require new cards, but it´s up to you finix, how many you want changed.
The militia spearmen is a new unit so it needs a new card and the heavy spearmen unit as well since they have different helmets.

And this leads me to the answers for lion8000:

The heavy spearmen unit wears the same lamellar armour as before, however I improved the textures a lot, I also gave them maille and I changed their helmets from "volga bulgarian style" to more byzantine and european influenced. That was one point people had issues with before.

The high era (formerly late era) infantry is also in line with the pictures and drawings I was presented: they wear brigandine and coat of plates , bascinets etc. It is still unclear to me whether the bulgarians wore full plate or not in the late era (whether under ottoman rule or not). I was told in this forum that full plate was too expensive but plate elements would have been present. But I don´t see if other nations could afford it, why the bulgarians shouldn´t , so late era units will have white armour like those of the hungarian, polish and other western knights. Once we get there.

As for the faction colour being red: I gave the tsar a red shield replacing the old blue one, and the faction symbol is not brown either, if that´s what you meant, so I think we are good.

[Slepeca]

hey guys

thanks for all opinions.
@Wille : I´m not sure I have a favourite unit but I guess I like the high era bolyars a lot. Actually I like them all, but that´s because I made them so to until I like how they looked Generally speaking the transitional armour period is my favourite so yeah.

Finix is right, I will add additional units to the roster, but this is what I had time for, for now, and I presented them here so that he can create new cards. Only some units require new cards, but it´s up to you finix, how many you want changed.
The militia spearmen is a new unit so it needs a new card and the heavy spearmen unit as well since they have different helmets.

And this leads me to the answers for lion8000:

The heavy spearmen unit wears the same lamellar armour as before, however I improved the textures a lot, I also gave them maille and I changed their helmets from "volga bulgarian style" to more byzantine and european influenced. That was one point people had issues with before.

The high era (formerly late era) infantry is also in line with the pictures and drawings I was presented: they wear brigandine and coat of plates , bascinets etc. It is still unclear to me whether the bulgarians wore full plate or not in the late era (whether under ottoman rule or not). I was told in this forum that full plate was too expensive but plate elements would have been present. But I don´t see if other nations could afford it, why the bulgarians shouldn´t , so late era units will have white armour like those of the hungarian, polish and other western knights. Once we get there.

As for the faction colour being red: I gave the tsar a red shield replacing the old blue one, and the faction symbol is not brown either, if that´s what you meant, so I think we are good.

In my opinion you should stick with what is proven ,and what is accurate to history ,bulgarians didn't have plate armor ,maybe Fruzhin had ,but that's because he was in the hungarian court ,and also ,just because other countries have plate armor ,doesn't mean that the bulgarians would have (if we survived) .Just look at our army now ,we don't have anything ,most of our equipment is rubbish 50 + years ,and barely repaird ,that analogy should give you an idea ,that you shouldn't add plate armor to bulgarian units,that would make them like the others ,nothing more ,just another plate armoured unit ,nope . If you want to change something ,change/split the bolyars into to units (Great Bolyars)and (Lesser Bolyars) ,that is historically accurate (there were really to branches to the bolyars) and it would give the bulgarians a little bit more distinct fill to it ,the great bolyars will be a generals bodyguard unit ,and the lesser bolyars would be a melee swordsman units ,if you want you can even change the hight/late era heavy swordsmen's name to lesser bolyars .

[lion8000]

In that time Bulgaria was very advanced and Fryzhin has Boyars with him.

[Slepeca]

In that time Bulgaria was very advanced and Fryzhin has Boyars with him.

Пич по-добре спри да коментираш ,че ни излагаш със своето невежество ,бе !

[lion8000]

No it is very stupid to compare the now day army with the medieval. Go an read something about the Second Bulgarian Tsardom and say that it wasn't advanced. An I didn't mean exactly during Frushins time because Bulgaria was already destroyed, I mean during the SBT. Fruzhin was very respected in Hungary and he has fought active agents the Ottomans. His stronghold was in the castle in Lipova. He should have some forces including some refugee Boyars.

[Teutonic]

Ah, yes- to have plate armour or not to have plate armour, that is the question... At least as far as late medieval Bulgaria is concerned

Under the years of Soviet rule/occupation Bulgarian history was heavily redacted, as one can expect. A lot of historical resources on Bulgarian history are still locked away in Russia with no access to them.

One result of this has been that when one looked at modern depictions of High Medieval Armies in Balkans a very curious view appears:

In most aspects (culturally, materially, economically, spiritually, politically, etc) Bulgarians and Serbs were very similar (+ the Byzantines nearby- don't know about those in Crete or Morea). But the Serbs were armed and armoured in the "Western" fashion (mostly) whilst the Bulgarians were like a mixture of Byzantines and Russians from 2 000 km away. Weird, right? As if any evidence of Western influence in Bulgaria was being erased...

So, as far as the Bulgarians are concerned, I believe they were armed and armoured in a mixture of "Western" and "Eastern (Byzantine)" fashion.
-Geographically they were placed further East. As a result they had less contact with the West and more with the East than the Serbs. Therefore:

1 Less availability to Western arms and armour and less inclination to use it (heavier Byzantine influence).
2 The type of enemy faced was somewhat different- lighter and quicker and more prone to use archery from the eastern Steppes
3 The type of allies and their influence on the local military was different. E.g. Serbs had German mercs, the Bulgarians had Cumans and Tatars.

BUT

1 Western arms and armour WERE available and were GOOD.
2 Some of their enemies were heavy- Serbs and their allies, Hungarians, Westerners (Amadeo's "crusade" in the 1360s)
3 All neighbours had influence on each other (Bulg, Serb, Byz, Valachians, Hungarians, Italians, Ragusans, Turks, Cumans, Tartars)

In conclusion, I agree that the more elite late units of the Bulgarians (Bodyguards, guard infantry, etc) should feature at least some Western equipment- just what exactly I wont preach. Whether full plate or just bits and pieces I don't know. The less elite or expensive, or more common the unit the more Byzantine and less Western the equipment. Western equipment was more expensive and less common for the Bulgarians compared to the Serbs (or just in general- Serbs' lower grade troops weren't decked out in full plate either)


I personally love the look of both Late Byzantine and High Medieval Western armour so I'm good anyway

Excellent work Ltd and the rest of the team for all the factions (my personal favourites tend to be High Era western armours).

PS Note that I use Serbs, Bulgarians, Byzantines and NOT Serbia, Bulgaria, Byzantine (Roman) Empire, etc. Posters here are very well informed about the historic period so there's no need for me to explain why.

[Slepeca]

Well ,it's not big of a question for the educated ones ,here ,and elsewhere ,it's just that since childbirth we always saw the medieval bulgarian soldiers with mail/scale armor and round helms (From movies and all of tha jazz)only that ,and now that we actually examine the excavations,trade agreements and frescos of bulgarian churches we see that our armies might'v looked more western in the late 14-th century ,than we thought up to that point ,it's somewhat alien and foreign to us ,for me it is a little bit (because was one of the early people to read about that ,in these forums ,and blogs around the net ) ,but i am actually kinda glad ,because throught the time of watching these films showcase the bulgarian armies like that ,i really hated it .And also ,i don't it has that much russian influence ,rather not examining the artifacts ,trade agreements and so on .

[Teutonic]

Well ,it's not big of a question for the educated ones ,here ,and elsewhere ,it's just that since childbirth we always saw the medieval bulgarian soldiers with mail/scale armor and round helms (From movies and all of tha jazz)only that ,and now that we actually examine the excavations,trade agreements and frescos of bulgarian churches we see that our armies might'v looked more western in the late 14-th century ,than we thought up to that point ,it's somewhat alien and foreign to us ,for me it is a little bit (because was one of the early people to read about that ,in these forums ,and blogs around the net ) ,but i am actually kinda glad ,because throught the time of watching these films showcase the bulgarian armies like that ,i really hated it .And also ,i don't it has that much russian influence ,rather not examining the artifacts ,trade agreements and so on .

I agree with all of this.
The Soviet influence probably wasn't direct, but it created the environment. It is true that many of the Bulgarian historians were/are really incompetent and/or lazy. If they get basic and obvious stuff hopelessly wrong*, you can't trust them about anything.

* In Bulgarian books/articles that I've read, they often seem to accept the numbers quoted by contemporary sources without critique. This is embarassing for a modern professional historian. E.g. Vukashin and Uglesha with 60 000 men at Chernomen