Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Second Bulgarian Tsardom

[Bobi_TWR]

When your level of knowledge reaches sufficient level, we can seriously talk. You showed one Ottoman battle with professional Ottoman forces in night raid on drunk and tired Serbian soldiers ? Can you find me a single medieval Bulgarian victory over Ottomans Besides I don't want to insult Bulgaria. I am not going to fall on your level. And I would feel stupid if good Bulgarians see that. But I feel sorry for chauvinist like you whose only argument is to insult and look funny with it. Go get a life !

I only insulted the politics of the Serbian Rulers .But guess you are too simple and you start to insult personally.I love the serbian people,I just dislike the political decisions of the Serbian Rulers and Politicians(like the decision to brainwash the Bulgarian Macedonians).Peace and Love my Serbian Brother

[SerbianWOLF]

Can you tell me when did I politically or anyhow insulted Bulgaria ? Sorry If I said something that made you mad. We don't need to fight about it. And why bringing "Macedonians" here

Ltd: I spoke about units. But some guys wanted to continue further. I tried to explain why I think full plate knights are better than eastern style bulgaria had at that time. Serbian knights were armored with full plate western armor. Bulgarians did not. I only say that it would be totally wrong to have Bulgarian Boyars stronger or same stats as full-plate knights And then BOOM. I didn't want to insult !

[+Marius+]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maritsa
Most Powerful Army

20-70 000 Troops for Serbia(not even the entire Serbia, but merely the Mrnjavčević clan) stated as a proper army source?

Wikipedia so so cute sometimes



About the heavy cavalries, you should not compare them pound for pound historically in a total war setting, since total war as a game usually provides equal numbers for both parties, while historically, Bulgaria fielded thousands upon thousands of cavalry compared to mere hundreds western forces did.

That is the main reason for the victories against the Romans, simply a vast numerical superiority of cavalry.

On the other hand, Edward I, the mighty king of England, managed to field 700 heavy cavalry at his height and the Templar Order in the Levant fielded 88 Templar knights at their height.

You cannot compare Eastern cavalry with Western pound for pound, because one is basically the utter elite of the entire force while the other is a large contingent and an entire section of an army, with various degree of equipment and horse quality.

Read the works of Ibn Al-Athir to understand what happened when eastern cavalry went toe to toe(frontally) with western cavalry.

Saladin himself is described as going mute and frozen in utter awe of the carnage.

[SerbianWOLF]

20-70 000 Troops for Serbia(not even the entire Serbia, but merely the Mrnjavčević clan) stated as a proper army source?

Wikipedia so so cute sometimes

What to tell you. Looks like Serbia was the most powerful force in middle ages.

Ofc. That wiki is sometimes very bad. Not even 70 000 soldiers could be sent to Kosovo where entire Serbia+Bosnia+mercenaries fought against Turks. And most funny part is those 800 men Turks were famous on sending a vast number of troops But I think this is not a place for this discussion.

About the heavy cavalries, you should not compare them pound for pound historically in a total war setting, since total war as a game usually provides equal numbers for both parties, while historically, Bulgaria fielded thousands upon thousands of cavalry compared to mere hundreds western forces did.

That is the main reason for the victories against the Romans, simply a vast numerical superiority of cavalry.

On the other hand, Edward I, the mighty king of England, managed to field 700 heavy cavalry at his height and the Templar Order in the Levant fielded 88 Templar knights at their height.

You cannot compare Eastern cavalry with Western pound for pound, because one is basically the utter elite of the entire force while the other is a large contingent and an entire section of an army, with various degree of equipment and horse quality.

Read the works of Ibn Al-Athir to understand what happened when eastern cavalry went toe to toe(frontally) with western cavalry.

Saladin himself is described as going mute and frozen in utter awe of the carnage.

I meant for armor when I talked about cav. There is always a way to crush western style cav

[finix]

You will not firing up the Balkan war, right guys?. Wait the campaign for that

[SerbianWOLF]

Don't worry, finix. We are very nice people.

[Ltd.]

This discussion is NOT to degenerate into a bulgarian - serbian virtual war. Noone can decide whose cavalry was stronger only by looking at who won more battles in a given period of time.
Please continue this discussion only in terms of current units, additional units and unit's stats , in order to avoid misunderstandings ...

[lion8000]

SerbianWOLF you should say that from the beginning. With the new archeological evidences Bulgaria was trading with Italy, mostly with Venice. The Bulgarian elite since 13th-14th century was using Italian style of armor(this means that they have pretty much the best equipment for that time). The main problem is that the Ottomans destroyed almost all sources. The current Boyars unit has such armor, the point is that they should be more.

The Bulgarians make huge resistance in the Rhodope mountains.
The Bulgarians defeated 3 times the Ottomans during the battles for Sofia. The main reason why the Bulgarian campaign agents the Ottomans fail was that Bulgaria was discrete and the different parts were fighting against each other. Also Bulgaria and Byzantine could not unify and were also constantly fighting each other.
Bey the way I like Serbia.
"Speaking about backstabbing, Bulgarians are very well known for that and a lot more !" . What do you mean with that?!!!

[SerbianWOLF]

Bolyars have western armor. They are almost similar to Serbian Knights I will ask Ltd. to put european pig-faced bascinet Bolyars have to Serbian Vlastela(to replace one ). Because that style of helmet was also used by Serbs

Sorry for the rest. All of the Balkans were crushed by Turks because of one reason. We were not united, states were at civil war. Balkan nations should do at that time what they did in 1912.

Those about backstabbing, I just got mad by saying the same that to Serbs, so I did the same Now we are cool and you can forget about those stupid things

Speaking of Boyars. I also think and I said that Boyars should be recruited in more numbers

[Teutonic]

Actually Bolyars are more heavily armoured than Serbian Knights (at least they look so, not sure about their actual stats). The Serbian Knights have eastern pieces mixed with western- I like it! I think it's realistic. Also, it makes them more unique + the later general unit and the Vlastela are all western.

I would've liked it if the Bolyars also had some "Byzantine" or eastern pieces mixed with the Hungarian armour. I was a little surprised that they were completely western in appearance.

[Bobi_TWR]

Actually Bolyars are more heavily armoured than Serbian Knights (at least they look so, not sure about their actual stats). The Serbian Knights have eastern pieces mixed with western- I like it! I think it's realistic. Also, it makes them more unique + the later general unit and the Vlastela are all western.

I would've liked it if the Bolyars also had some "Byzantine" or eastern pieces mixed with the Hungarian armour. I was a little surprised that they were completely western in appearance.

Totally agree with you about the look of the Boyars and the Serbian Knights have better Armor Value(i think it was + 10)

[SerbianWOLF]

Stats say Boyars are better(in attack). But that does mean nothing I tested this right now. My 1 unit of knights clashed with 1 unit of Boyars, I lost only 6 soldiers and boyars lost 79. I tried same batte but playing with Bulgaria and I won losing 18 men there while knights were all dead. It's a proof when I said that strength of enemy unit won't take away your victory But I think it would be cool to add one more texture of Bulgarian/Byzantine high quality eastern armor to Boyars. Serbian Knights also have some eastern looking armor.

[Bobi_TWR]

Stats say Boyars are better(in attack). But that does mean nothing I tested this right now. My 1 unit of knights clashed with 1 unit of Boyars, I lost only 6 soldiers and boyars lost 79. I tried same batte but playing with Bulgaria and I won losing 18 men there while knights were all dead. It's a proof when I said that strength of enemy unit won't take away your victory But I think it would be cool to add one more texture of Bulgarian/Byzantine high quality eastern armor to Boyars. Serbian Knights also have some eastern looking armor.

Maybe because you tested vs the AI and tests vs AI are never 100% accurate ;P.Also what do you think about giving Serbian mid tier inf(forgot the name but they costed 500 ) shield wall and wedge because atm Bulgaria is a lot stronger than Serbia because the player that plays as the Bulgars can easily destroy the Serbian cav just by charging with cheap cav and then charge with a unit that got wedge(there are a lot of units that specialise in killing cav in the Bulgarian roaster )
My point is that in large funds,especially med or small Serbia kinda doesnt have a chance vs Bulgaria because of their terrible melee infantry and because of the bulgarians insane cost efficient melee units
And this is kinda historical innacurate because at 14th century(correct me if i am wrong) the Serbian Kingdom was the biggest and most powerfull state in the Balcans while Bulgarians were divided in 3 states and were extremely weak because of that fact
Here is a screenshot of Bulgaria vs Serbia: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=686829821
Also Wolf if you wanna test with me instead the AI(I am just suggesting that you tested vs the AI) add me in steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/bobi_TWR
Cheers

[lion8000]

Maybe because you tested vs the AI and tests vs AI are never 100% accurate ;P.Also what do you think about giving Serbian mid tier inf(forgot the name but they costed 500 ) shield wall and wedge because atm Bulgaria is a lot stronger than Serbia because the player that plays as the Bulgars can easily destroy the Serbian cav just by charging with cheap cav and then charge with a unit that got wedge(there are a lot of units that specialise in killing cav in the Bulgarian roaster )
My point is that in large funds,especially med or small Serbia kinda doesnt have a chance vs Bulgaria because of their terrible melee infantry and because of the bulgarian's in sane cost efficient melee units
And this is kinda historical innacurate because at 14th century(correct me if i am wrong) the Serbian Kingdom was the biggest and most powerfull state in the Balcans while Bulgarians were divided in 3 states and were extremely weak because of that fact
Here is a screenshot of Bulgaria vs Serbia: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=686829821
Also Wolf if you wanna test with me instead the AI(I am just suggesting that you tested vs the AI) add me in steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/bobi_TWR
Cheers

[lion8000]

Excuse me for the last comment I was posting on my smart phone and it deleted what I was writing and somehow copy your comment.



Actually it's not that surprising that the Boyars have entirely western armor because Bulgaria was trading a lot with Italy and the Boyars were the richest part of the Bulgarian society. Before some time I watched professor Bojidar Dimitrov and he was speaking about the First Bulgarian empire and I think that he said that the Bulgarians have used chain mail for the horses. That's why they should add an very heavy early unit like cataphracts (which is very needed).

[Bobi_TWR]

Excuse me for the last comment I was posting on my smart phone and it deleted what I was writing and somehow copy your comment.



Actually it's not that surprising that the Boyars have entirely western armor because Bulgaria was trading a lot with Italy and the Boyars were the richest part of the Bulgarian society. Before some time I watched professor Bojidar Dimitrov and he was speaking about the First Bulgarian empire and I think that he said that the Bulgarians have used chain mail for the horses. That's why they should add an very heavy early unit like cataphracts (which is very needed).

Well i just think that the Bolyar unit must be more unique than just copying western armor.And you gotta admit that the Bulgarian Roaster is one of the most balanced/completed in the entire mod.Just look at the Byzantine roaster (fun fact the term ''Byzantine'' is used from 17-18th century because it would be really confusing to just call them romans )So i really don't think that we need more units.In my opinion the modders need to focus on adding units to Turks/Byzantines/Cumans and so on or even better adding new factions.As a Bulgarian i ofc want the Bulgarian Tsarsdom to be OP but we need to be reasanoble too

[lion8000]

So first of all the Bulgarian army was counting on the cavalry and until 1360-1370 she was still an power that you should not underestimate. Bulgaria at that time was in good relationships with Serbia. Bay the way Serbia at that time was also starting to fragment. Byzantine was also in civil war. Also it was pretty even. Bay the way they said that the Bulgarian roster is still not finished and that there will be many more units to come.

[SerbianWOLF]

So first of all the Bulgarian army was counting on the cavalry and until 1360-1370 she was still an power that you should not underestimate. Bulgaria at that time was in good relationships with Serbia. Bay the way Serbia at that time was also starting to fragment. Byzantine was also in civil war. Also it was pretty even. Bay the way they said that the Bulgarian roster is still not finished and that there will be many more units to come.

I agree

I am glad to hear that Serbia will have better units ;P . Maybe even a Merc variant of the famous Venetien light cav ( think that the name was Stradioti Cavalry)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratioti

Yeah Stratiotis can be made as a mercenary cav for Balkan and Italian factions Also Hussars will be made for Serbia and Hungary, if I am not mistaken

[Bobi_TWR]

Yes they even said that they have ready unit models(1 was Tzar's guard if I am not mistaken).My point is that Bulgaria at the moment is 1 of the most powerful factions in the game and the most powerful in low/med funds . Their only real weaknesses are Knights(altho they can be countered pretty easy) and late period western infantry . As I said there is no urgent need to update the Bulgarian roaster due to its extreme cost efficiency

[Bobi_TWR]

A proof that an spam of late period western units won't work vs eastern factions(at least vs Bulgaria )
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=687298059