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Thread: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

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    Default [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    Basic Guide: Hayastan
    for difficulty "campaign: hard/battles: medium
    "








    This is an attempt at a guide for one of my favourite factions in Europa Barbarorum - Hayasdan.

    Due to the very nature of a guide this post will contain spoilers about several things, so consider yourselves warned.
    Also, this is a work in progress, there may be updates in the future.

    All the following is written with a difficulty setting of H/M in mind since I exclusively play on that difficulty.
    That difficulty means that rebels actually siege your settlements if they feel strong enough and that the AI factions hire mercenaries (medium would give you the unfair advantage of having all the mercenaries for yourself).



    1. Of mountains and valleys (starting situation)

    If you have played Hayasdan in EB I you'll probably remember them being quite difficult. Not only did they start as neighbours of "The Grey Death" aka the Arche Seleukia but their only province was under-developed and they were always outnumbered because their line infantry (Caucasian Spearmen for the most part) took heavy casualties in every battle and retraining units lowered your population in R:TW.

    So in short: Hayasdan was listed as "nigh-impossible" for good reason.

    In EB II this has changed quite significantly. They are still öisted as "nigh-impossible" but I expect that to change sometime in the future since their chances have vastly improved. Especially when compared to their neighbour Pontos (which is listed as "nigh-impossible", too) you quickly realize that this difficulty rating is not correct anymore. That's due to several reasons:

    (1) You don't own one, but two provinces at start - Armavir and Shamushat (which replaced Karkathiokerta at some point in the "EB 2.02 to EB 2.08" development). This means - among other things - two potential sources of recruitment.

    (2) Armavir has a very profitable mine built already, adding more than 2000 mnai of income to treasury every turn. Therefore you are not losing money, instead you're making a very substantial profit.

    (3) They have access to a very good unit pool (see Chapter 2).

    (4) It's possible to remain at peace with the Arche Seleukia for as long as you wish. The reason is the Independence script: every 4 turns (at winter) you have to pay the AS 3000 mnai as tribute. Stopping that means war (see chapter 4). But as long as you pay you'll stay at peace with them. Therefore you can - in opposition to EB I - choose yourself if and when you go to war with your mighty southern neighbour.


    When the campaign starts and you clicked through the pop up messages (choosing a potential successor during that process) you'll see a part of the Caucasus, the view is centered at your capital Armavir.




    As you can see your troops are spread out through the north-eastern part of your (yet) small kingdom.

    Your starting Hayastan Gund, led by your Arkhay, is roaming the north-eastern border.

    There are two things to consider when deciding where to move to with both armies:

    First - within 4-6 turns a large force of independent caucasian tribes will come down from the north, approaching Armavir - and sieging it, if they are strong enough. You therefore definitely need a strong garisson in Armavir.
    Second - you have three realistic options of conquest: Ani-Kamah (1), Kutatisi (3) or Kabalaka (4). Trapezous is out of your reach since in EB 2.3 Pontos is scripted to siege and take this settlement. And Gazaka has a roaming stack in the province that will perhaps be too strong for your initial forces but in any case divert your forces to the completely wrong direction. The East will be quiet for at least a couple turns, the West will probably be conquered by Pontos if you aren't quick.

    So I usually combine both armies at Armavir, recruiting another unit of Armenian Spearmen in both settlements(and some more units in Armavir in the following two turns), leave about one third of the troops in Armavir and head south with the rest. Oh and I exchange the general. Yervand, Your faction leader, should reside in Armavir, just because that's what Faction Leaders should always do in EB II, to prevent decreasing loyalty of the other FMs.
    The heir, Shamush, will take over. Artavazd I leave in Armavir, too, as that means that I do not need that many units for the rebel stack. Your bodyguard cavalry is among the absolute best cavalry available in the entire game - and it's frightening enemy infantry.
    Two FMs, charging an enganged enemy line from behind (on both flanks, ideally), will often ensure an immediate mass rout.

    There's one more crucial thing to do in turn 1 - build paved roads in Armavir.
    Same reason as always - paved roads (and highways) add a lot of trade income, especially if you own the surrounding provinces, and paved roads enable your armies to march much faster. Armavir is a large province, you'll quickly come to appreciate the speed boost.

    Other than that, you should send your spy (that's lurking around Ani-Kamah) northwards to the coast to watch Pontos siege Trapezous. Perhaps you're lucky and they're repelled - in that case Trapezous will become your second target (see chapter 3).
    Your diplomat will first need to visit Pontos (at least for trade rights, you could establish an alliance, too, though, which will make your early campaign even more smooth sailing.)

    Done for turn 1.


    2. Pointy sticks and four-hooved beasts (unit overview, army compositions, battle tactics)


    As mentioned Hayasdan has access to some very good units right from the beginning and is able to pay for them as well.

    So lets have a look at what is available to the Hai Arkah.
    As with my Baktrian guide, this is not the complete list of available units, there are a lot more regionals and mercenaries around. I just am in turn 240 of a defensive Haysdan campaign and simply haven't gotten around to, say, Baktria or Egypt, to see what's available there.
    Hai Nizakamartik (Armenian Spearmen)
    Very reliable line infantry, available in good numbers. Use them whenever you can, they are incredible. Only weakness (as for many of your troops) are ranged attacks. Oh and superheavy cavalry like Iranian Bodyguards.

    Nezagdar i Kappodakiya (Anatolian Spearmen)More or less the Caucasian Spearmen from EB I, except the fact that they are even weaker in defense but gained javelins. I only use them as flank guards for my archers or (in dire situations) as flanking troops. Replaced by the Doryphoroi kata Galaton after the Thureos reform (~turn 60).
    Kamandar i Kappodakiya (Anatolian Archers)
    Your main source of ranged infantry throughout the early game. Good archers. They are not quite as deadly as the Caucasian Archers were in EB I, but they got an axe nowadays so if a situations is really hopeless, you could use them as flank/rear attack force.

    Dranik Gund (Armenian Royal Guard in EB 2.3 not available from the start anymore, you need to be independent)
    Incredibly beautiful, incredibly useful and incredibly rare. A fantastic hybrid of heavily armoured archers and spearmen. Their unit description states that these guys are exclusively used for the duty of guarding the Hai Arkah and his family so I never use more than two units of them - one is with the Faction Leader and the second with the Faction Heir.

    Pantodapoi Phalangitai (Hellenistic Native Phalanx)
    Your only Phalanx unit. I never use them (except for garrison duty) since with Hayasdan I prefer being mobile on the battlefield. And a phalanx is the exact opposite thing.

    Eranag Payadag i Taparam (Iranian Axemen)
    Flankers with axes. Do not expect them to survive in a prolonged melee against heavier troops. And prepare to see them dying like flies if they are under archer fire.

    Arvadni i Kappodakiya (Anatolian Tribesmen)
    Skirmishers with axes. Do not expect them to survive in a prolonged melee against heavier troops. And prepare to see them dying like flies if they are under archer fire. They are far superiour to Akontistai and almost on par with the Payadag i Ashtan.

    Machairophoroi kata Galaton (Galatianized Swordsmen)
    Got heir proper model in EB 2.3, and they basically fill the same role as the hellenistic machairophoroi, slightly worse, though. If you can get Peltenai (Thracian Peltastai), use these instead, they're better. If you have no Peltenai, these guys will do, they just don't excel.

    Doryphoroi kata Galaton (Galatianized Spearmen)
    Got heir proper model in EB 2.3. As with the Swordsmen - the role is basically the same as their hellenistic counterparts (here: Thureophoroi), but these (Pseudo-)Galatians are slightly weaker. Still useful and a common sight in my Hayastan Gund.

    Regalin (Akkadian Heavy Infantry)Babylonian hoplite-style unit. See them as (slightly weaker) classical hoplites and you won't be disappointed. They are usually deployed at the right flank of my main battle line.

    Eranag Payadag (Western Iranian Archer-Spearmen)
    Great archers, they are your main source of ranged warfare outside the Caucasus/Anatolia.

    Payadag i Kardakan (Persian Heavy Spearmen)
    According to the EB II team these guys (known as the Kardakes) were planned to be some Thureophoroi style unit. Now they turned out as some kind of reliable spearmen, without javelins. Not a bad unit, but as the galatianized Spearmen definitly weaker than the Armenian Spearmen you begin your campaign with. There's one advantage, though - I get the impression that they are stronger against cavalry.

    Payadag i Falakhanan (Eastern Slingers)
    Good ranged option, should avoid melee completely (as usual).

    Payadag i Ashtan (Iranian Javelinmen)
    Good reliable (short) range unit, can be used as flankers, too, although you shouldn't expect them to fare well against any trained and/or well-equipped unit once they have spent their javelins. The javelins though are deadly.

    (Uextias) East Celt Raiders
    Available in the Native Colonies in Mid/western Anatolia. Not exceptionally good swordsmen, but they add flavour for sure. An alternative to the Galatianized swordsmen.

    Peltenai (Thracian Peltastai)
    Do I really have to write anything about Thracian Peltasts? You want them whenever you can get them. They can be used as shock troops (not the best option, but still one of the best Hayasdan gets), as flankers, as bane of enemy skirmishers ..... they are simply great. Available in the high level Native Colony in mid/western Anatolia.

    Mudunup I Kappodakiya/Eranag Aswar i Ashtan (Anatolian Light Cavalry/Iranian Javelin Cavalry)
    Almost the same, except that the Anatolians are slightly better. Good light cavalry, best used against skirmishers (and the basic horse archers).

    Aswar I Kappodakiya/Eranag i Aswar (Anatolian Medium Cavalry/Iranian Medium Cavalry)
    Once again, two similar units. The Anatolians have slightlybetter stats - and a few javelins. So while the Iranians are a good medium cavalry and are cheaper even, I usually settle with the Anatolians.

    Phæzhægashkha (North-western caucasian infantry)
    Heavy axe-wielding infantry with deadly javelins. The answer to your question "Do Hayastan have access to shock and assault troops?" Unfortunately very rare (available only in small numbers and only in Kutatisi).

    Netadzik Ayrudzi (Armenian Horse Archers)
    Basic Horse Archers. They do what you can expect from such a unit. Don't even send them to chase down routers as they will take casualties even then.

    Aursa Baragatæ (Aursan Horse Archers)
    See Armenian Horse-Archers, except these guys have better stats and can be used to hunt down fleeing enemies and can even be used for a desperate charge if the situation is that bad.

    Aznvakan Aspet (Armenian Cataphracts)
    Your heaviest cavalry (except the bodyguards). They are able to simply ride down enemy infantry from the front (as long as they avoid a wall of spears or really heavy infantry, as usual). They come with lance and mace so they are able to stand their ground in a melee as well. Very expensive but worth every single coin. Come with the "frighten enemy infantry" trait.

    Hayots Ayrudzi (Caucasian Lancers)
    A little less terrifying than the Cataphracts ... but that doesn't mean these lancers aren't good. Indeed they are quie fantastic for what you want to do with them - take on annoyingly fast cavalry of the steppes, for example.

    Maryagatæ (Sarmatian Retinue)
    Another quite pleasant surprise in 2.3 - these formidable Sarmatian riders are at your service (in case you manage to establish a level 3 eastern colony in the northern Caucasus regions).

    Kamandar i Pars (Persian archers)
    If you manage to get to the old persian core regions (Sousa and east of it) you're rewarded with yet another great archer unit.
    I just love these guys. They are not quite as deadly as your Dranik Gund - but except the elite Sabaeans and Bosphorans there is nothing as deadly as your Royal Guard.
    And the Kamandar i Pars a still a force to be reckoned with.


    As you see you have quite a few fantastic units at your disposal but you want to make sure to combine them into well-balanced armies, ready to take on whatever the people of the plains below throw at you.

    In the early game you'll face armies that are more or less composed like your own, except the fact that in most cases the opposition doesn't field heavy cavalry. Infact your bodyguards are the winning force while you unite the Caucasus under your rule.
    (They will remain a very useful part of your armies throughout the whole game but aren't that crucial/irreplaceable later on.)

    For the conquest of your Caucasian Kingdom you could aim for an army like the following:

    2+ FMs
    3+ Armenian Spearmen
    2 Anatolian Spearmen
    2+ Anatolian Archers
    1 Eranag Payadag
    1 Iranian Axemen
    1 Eastern Javelinmen
    1 Eastern Slingers
    1 Anatolian Light Cavalry
    1 Anatolian Medium Cavalry
    1 Armenian Horse-Archers
    1 Aursan Horse-Archers


    Add in the cataphracts only after the conquest of Ani-Kamah and Kutatisi, as they will be too expensive beforehand.

    For later armies the Anatolian Spearmen will not be available anymore since the first Hellenistic Reform replaces them with Galatianized Spearmen (which are clearly superiour to them) - and additional to the (Pseudo-)Galatians you'll get access to the Akkadians, to Hoplites (from your "Philhellenic Satrapy" government, once you achieved the Pan-Caucasian Empire Reform, to (more) Native Phalangites and eventually "Heavy" Persian Spearmen.

    If you conquer Mazaka or Amaseia you can even get Peltenai (Thraikian Peltasts) via the "Native Colony" building.

    My current Royal Army looks like this:

    1 FM (Faction Heir + one of his brothers)
    2 Galatianized Spearmen
    1 Heavy Persian Spearmen
    1 Akkadian Elite Infantry
    2 Armenian Spearmen
    2 Anatolian Archers
    1 Armenian Royal Guard
    1 Peltenai
    1 Eastern Slingers
    1 Aursan Horse-Archers
    1 Iranian Light Cavalry
    1 Caucasian Lancers
    1 Anatolian Medium Cavalry
    1 Armenian Cataphracts

    You could easily replace 3 or 4 of the spearmen/hoplitai with Native Phalangites but I usually avoid them in the Royal Army because I consider them not flexible enough.

    Don't miss to have a look at the Historical Army Compositions thread, too (The evolution of the "Hayastan Gund" can be found at pages 29-33 at the bottom of the document). It's not just a great read (all the pages, not just the Hayastan-related ), it's incredibly useful.


    Battle tactics .... I'm the first to admit that I am the absolutely wrong person to talk about such. What I usually do (and what works more or less) is to deploy my line infantry in one single line, the archers behind them with a unit of Galatianized Spearmen on both sides of the archers - and everything else (including FM) just behind.
    As soon as the battle starts I spread out that "third line", try to circle around the enemy and hope for the best.



    3. Do you mind me taking this? (early strategy tips and options)



    As said above Hayasdan is one of the EB II factions that is enjoying a stable financial situation at game start.
    This means that it is possible not to expand at all in the first turns and to concentrate on developing your two starting provinces.

    This is not at all recommended, though.
    All your immediate neighbours (Pontos, AS, Bosphorans, Sauromatae) are really active right from the start.
    If you aren't quick enough you'll be too late for the first important goal of your campaign - which is conquering Ani-Kamah, (Trapezous), Kutatisi, Kabalaka and Gazaka while they are still held by rebels.

    Why are these provinces so important?

    Well, Trapezous is simply rich and offers you a port and the option to build ships in case you need any.
    All other settlements are part of the "Pan-Caucasus Empire Reform" (see chapter 4).
    UPDATE EB 2.3: Nowadays Pontos is via script always successful with conquering Trapezous by turn 2. (Tested it about 10 times).
    That means you will need another settlement as replacement as you need 7 provinces for the Pan-Caucasian Empire reform.

    ["Why skip Mtshkheta?" you may ask now. Indeed it seems a bit odd to leave that province be for now. Up until 2.07 (I think) it was one of my initial goals as well. But nowadays there's a nice little script which causes the AS to declare war if you attack their protectorate. If you want to know the historical background for this just click on Mtshkheta and read the pop-up.]

    The course of conquest should be Ani-Kamah -> (Trapezous) -> Kutatisi -> Kabalaka -> Gazaka:




    In Ani-Kamah, Kabalaka and Gazaka you will have to deal with additional rebel forces that roam the province, a few words about them:

    Ani-Kamah
    There are 2 nearly-half stacks there at turn one. The AI combines them and sends them to the northern border of the province. To avoid a battle where you have to attack this almost-fullstack uphill, just siege Ani-Kamah. You could attack it right away (since it has no walls) but just siege it. The roaming army will come down and attack you instead - a battle you can win with far less casualties than if you attacked in the mountains.

    Kabalaka
    The battle for Kabalaka ist not really difficult (despite the governor having Iranian Heavy Cavalry bodyguards), the problem is located to the far north-east.

    After conquering the settlement and leaving a garrison, move your force to the northeast around the mountains. At the province border there's a rebel (half)stack of caucasian troops.
    If you don't destroy this force before moving on to Gazaka you'll lose Kabalaka within 5 turns.

    Gazaka
    The worst of the three. Gazaka is a very large, hilly province - and somewhere in there you'll have to deal with a fullstack of rebels, including an Iranian Heavy Cavalry Bodyguard and three Median Cavalry units.
    Prepare to lose quite a few men to this army (when I fought this stack for the first time I even lost 2 of my FMs!).
    Sometimes you're lucky and the stack wanders off into the Ekbatana province to pursue some Seleukids, in most cases you'll find the army at the northwestern border, though, causing devastation to Armavir. If you manage to attack them there (near the river crossing) you may be lucky and avoid attacking uphill, otherwise you're in for a real massacre (especially if you're as equally a "brilliant" tactician as I am ....)

    So, you conquered all the mentioned settlements (which should be done by turn ~40, even when you do the same as me - generally waiting for the garrison to sally) - what now?

    Provided that Trapezous didn't fall into your hands you'll need another target, as mentioned.

    Well this is the point where several options may be there or not:

    1. Mazaka is still rebel-held
    Won't happen all too often, in most cases Pontos or (rarely) AS/Pergamon will conquer it rather quickly.
    If you still can - take it. It is (as most anatolian settlements) potentially rich, it gives you access to Peltenai, it's a way to further hamper Pontos (after already taking Trapezous before them) ... lots of reasons, really.

    2. Sinope is still rebel-held
    Will happen sometimes. It's a bit tricky - since Sinope has a very different culture-mix you will have to leave a substantial garrison there (and if you not sack/exterminate the settlement you'll still face a serious rebellion).
    Potentially rich again, but in the early campaign probably more of a burden than a boon.
    Interesting fact about Sinope - as long as it is rebel-held the Sauromatae and/or Bosphorans will send stacks around the sea to conquer it. So don't panic if you see a half (or even full) stack of horse archers moving towards Kabalaka (from the east), then Armavir and then Trapezous. Sometimes it will even stand near Trapezous for 10+ turns before moving on. I was never attacked by such a stack, though.

    3. Edessa, Tarsos or Arbela revolts
    Pretty easy to answer - every single one of these provinces is a must-have. You won't seen them revolt very often, though.
    (And making a settlement revolt has become so very difficult that it is not worth the hassle (and the money you sink into offensive spies/assassins) anymore. )
    UPDATE EB 2.3: in the new version I strongly recommend to encourage rebellion in one of these three settlements. I usually go for Arbela first since it will turn into a good candidate for the new captial later in the campaign when you start eating the Seleukids. The earlier you habe it, the earlier you can start to establish the infrastructure needed for a capital (schools!).

    4. Paniardis is still rebel-held
    Saw this twice and both times refrained from taking the province. Too far away, too poor (camp!). Nothing more to say about that.

    You may or may not have conquered one or more of those settlements now, but sooner or later you run out of options to expand without declaring war against a "real" AI faction.
    That's the moment when you finally should start to care about developing your provinces - and about your diplomatic standing!

    Let's start with the diplomacy as this should be started at turn 1 of course.
    I usually send my diplomat to Amaseia to establish trade right with Pontos. And perhaps an alliance, too, that may prove a bad idea, though since Pontos (despite not sharing a border) will in 9 out of 10 cases not make peace with the Ptolemaioi. And as soon as you start to fight the Seleukids, the Ptolies would be best ally candiates. Not possible when they are still at war with your ally Pontos, though.
    So decide between "secure western border early on" and "secure southern border in the later campaign".

    Developing your provinces is a rather easy and straight-forward task with Hayasdan. You want:

    - the Pan-Caucasus Reform for advanced government options
    - your settlements reaching 6k households so you can build paved roads
    - highest possible "Native Colony" building for better recruitment options and to raise the Eastern Imperial culture

    So what I usually do is this:

    1. Set the taxes to "low" in every settlement that's below 6k. As soon as you have 4 provinces you can easily cover your expenses and pay the annual tribute to the Arche Seleukia nevertheless.

    2. After conquest of Ani-Kamah, Kutatisi, Kabalaka and Gazaka build "Military occupation" and "Caucasian government" as the first two things. As soon as all four government buildings are finished (and, to mention it again, you have seven provinces in total), the Pan-Caucasian Kingdom event kicks in and you can (and should!) build Satrapies in all your provinces.

    (Note: if you build the 4 governments before you reach 7 provinces the event may not kick in. In this case just destroy one of the governments and build it anew, that fixes this hiccup.)

    Should you have conquered Sinope and/or Edessa you are presented the option of a "Phil-Hellenic Satrapy". I usually build these since the recruitment options are interesting. Hoplitai, anyone?
    Oh, and don't build a satrapy in Armavir but wait until it reaches 6k instead. After that you can build a Royal Satrapy there which will help greatly with aquiring the necessary cultural change for the Imperial Reform.

    3. Aside the above-mentioned government buildings the most important buildings are (a) farms and (b) roads, in that order.

    4. The Native Colonies are crucial to have a reliable source of recruitment (and sufficient numbers of troops).

    5. In Kutatisi and Shamushat you can build mines that are worth it (525 income, respectively). The mine in Armavir would be absolutely worth the 32k to upgrade it but before doing that you need 6k households again and the 2nd level "waystations" building. And in Armavir you need to build so many other things because it is the settlement where your young FMs are educated under the stern eyes of your Faction Leader (schools and temples and markets...).

    In my current campaign I still have not upgraded the mine because I don't have 20 turns to spare on that...

    Speaking about province development includes a brief look at garrisons.
    I usually use this as standard garrison:

    2 Armenian Spearmen
    1 Anatolian Spearmen (or Pseudogalatians in the later stages)
    2 Anatolian Archers
    1 Eastern slingers

    (The larger the settlement the larger the needed garisson, of course. After hitting "large city" level, expect to have at least a 3/4 stack in all settlements that are not in direct contact to your capital).

    (Note: Unfortunately nowadays EB doesn't offer any chance to use forts. Originally there were lots of minor settlements which crippled the CAI, though, and were therefore removed.
    If someone would be able to explain to me how I can reenable constructable, non-permanent forts into the game, I'd be most grateful. As it is now, you have a way easier time with the factions that have access to a wonder outpost (which can be used as fort).
    All others have to either live with a slowly degenerating Royal Army leader (as this army has to stand in the open field all the time, which impacts both Loyalty and traits of the general in a rather negative way) or with no Royal Army at all, but a emergency rabble of "whatever I can get my hands on quickly".)




    4. From Arkhay to Arkhayitsh Arkhay (reforms and independence)


    The Hayastan independence process is quite similar to the Baktrian one.
    You need to stop paying tribute, repel the invasion fullstack, conquer at least 2 Seleukid provinces and defeat several (6+) large Seleukid armies (11+ units).
    Which parovinces you should take highly depends on the situation in your campaign, in general it is a good idea to work toward Ekbatana - Sousa (the latter being not only immensely rich but also makes for a great buffer towards the east) and / or Antiocheia, both in addition to Arbela/Seleukeia/Babylon which should be taken anyway.

    I'd like to direct you to this wonderful topic for more details about the reform process:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...m-requirements

    A brief note about the "Imperial Seat" government that you can get - depending on your empire size and the authority rating of your faction leader you can get up to 2 such governments. I'd recommend to use their significant bonuses for one outstanding province in the far west (Sardis for example) and one in the east (Apameia, Aspadana or Persepolis for example). Don't just waste them on any nearby settlement - as you cannot destroy and re-establish them. Once built they have to stay there. So make sure it is in the right place before you click on the icon to start building.

    [As said above, all of this is work in progress. If you have something to add and/or to correct, please comment so I can edit and improve this guide. Thanks! ]
    Last edited by Shadowwalker; October 29, 2017 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Reworked and updated to EB 2.3

  2. #2
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.1] Hayasdan

    I'm playing with Hayastan with EBII 2.2 r on vh/h and I may write some extensive observations at some point, but for now I put here what's worth knowing as continuation of this guide:
    - the tribute to the Seleukids is very reasonable (3k a year), while having the enormous benefit of securing your southern border.
    - be aware of the numerous rebels - they do cross the borders and they may attack instantly. The settlements without walls (like Ani-Kamagh) are very vulnerable.
    - be aware of the spawning garrisons - you may see 14 units, but after starting a siege the number might be bigger;
    - the generals may die easily (two in a row in two battles of Armenian cataphracts against medium cavalry), but this is not the rule;
    - the Causasus is closed in the north: no pass from the Kura valley other than through the Caspian shore (it's different than the many other games: there's usually Darjali pass (or even two), and also a way along the Pontus Euxinus shore).
    - it seems that achieving 6k households in Armavir might be the biggest challange for the reforms,
    - I didn't manage to gain any alliance (as described above - for reputation).
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; June 24, 2017 at 02:47 AM.

  3. #3
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.1] Hayasdan

    We closed the passes to stop AI-Hayastan wandering off conquering the steppe and never engaging with the region.

  4. #4
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.1] Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    We closed the passes to stop AI-Hayastan wandering off conquering the steppe and never engaging with the region.
    Yep, I've followed the discussion on the Caucasus passes some time ago. Actually I do think that the Darjali Pass was not accessible for big forces in the ancient times. I'm not so sure if it was the case of the seashore route along Pontus Euxinus, but it might have been (we don't hear from the sources about any big forces going there, do we). The side effect of this choice is, however, that a Hay player is very safe from this direction: the Sauromatae can come only from the Caspian side, and they don't do it for a long time for they have to deal first with the Albanian rebels, even if expanding in this direction. Thus the Hay strategic situation is very safe - on the south you're safer due to the tribute to the Seleukids, while on the north there're the mountains with no passes. I'm not sure if it wouldn't be useful to spawn a Sauromatae stack after player takes Kutaisi.

    In conjuction with the initial mines in Armarvir provide 2k income and the rebel stacks prevent other AI factions to attack you, access to a number of good troops, the strategic situation of the Hayastan seems to be very, very strong. You may indeed expand to 6 provinces, build up you economy, fend off the Sauromatae easily on the Caspian shore, and choose the moment of attacking the Seleukids. Easy.
    My modding advice would be to remove the mines so that at the beginning the player can expand slower (2700 income instead of 4700 - some time would be spent to collect the money and build those mines) - but I understand that may be a problem for the AI-Hayastan...

    The unit cards (2D) of Arvadni i Kappodakiya and Nezagdar i Kappodakiya are almost identical. I've started to call the Arvadni "the red caps" because it's the only feature distinguishing them. I think I'd be useful to make Arvadni wiedling the axes on 2D, or/and make their shirts of different colour. In the battle it was always difficultu to tell which unit is which.

    Some remarks on the battles - given the experience from Stainless Steel (and RTW different mods, M2TW-BC,BrCR,DLV, R2TW-DeI, ATW as well ;-)
    - in the open-field battle the AI seem to have problems with the management of the troops - they go here and there behind the lines. This behaviour is well-know from the past of the M2TW engine but I haven't experienced it in the most recent SS mods (HURB, SSHIP) so it might be dealt with, I suppose. (on the other hand, the ATW engine stuggles)
    - the AI general assaults frontally the player front while his troops are left behind - same thing, and similarily I haven't seen it in the recent SSs (however, I may have had bad luck in EBII?),
    - attacking from the rear doesn't have such devastating effects as in the other mods. This may be good as the H-a-A tactics is slightly less efficient.
    - slow rate of dying makes the manouvers on the flanks even more important and the numerical (in terms of the numbers of units) advantage more pronounced for the player - you've got time to go around the enemy.

    I've managed to get an alliance with the Makedon (ally of the Seleukids who are suzerain of Hayastan) while I didn't mange to get it with many other factions even offering money and maps in exchange - good, the z3n stuff seems working.

    That's for Hayastan - my file got corrupted somehow so I'll switch to another faction in future.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; June 24, 2017 at 12:09 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.1] Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Yep, I've followed the discussion on the Caucasus passes some time ago. Actually I do think that the Darjali Pass was not accessible for big forces in the ancient times. I'm not so sure if it was the case of the seashore route along Pontus Euxinus, but it might have been (we don't hear from the sources about any big forces going there, do we). The side effect of this choice is, however, that a Hay player is very safe from this direction: the Sauromatae can come only from the Caspian side, and they don't do it for a long time for they have to deal first with the Albanian rebels, even if expanding in this direction. Thus the Hay strategic situation is very safe - on the south you're safer due to the tribute to the Seleukids, while on the north there're the mountains with no passes. I'm not sure if it wouldn't be useful to spawn a Sauromatae stack after player takes Kutaisi.
    pass by the Caspian Sea was the major north-south route. in contrast, passes in the middle of the range and on its western fringe were much more difficult to cross. this is now well reflected in this game that focuses almost exclusively on strategic gameplay (when it come to campaign mode). besides, we shouldnt overestimate the scale and frequency of the interventions of the nomadic northerns into the region. for gameplay reasons, you need a capable Hay faction to provide a check on the Seleukid powerhouse; from historical pespective, at this stage southward invasions from beyond the Caucasus were neither frequent nor desicive. and Hay kings have never ever ventured north beyond Caucasus - there was absolutely no reason to, whichever way one looks at it.

    In conjuction with the initial mines in Armarvir provide 2k income and the rebel stacks prevent other AI factions to attack you, access to a number of good troops, the strategic situation of the Hayastan seems to be very, very strong. You may indeed expand to 6 provinces, build up you economy, fend off the Sauromatae easily on the Caspian shore, and choose the moment of attacking the Seleukids. Easy.
    My modding advice would be to remove the mines so that at the beginning the player can expand slower (2700 income instead of 4700 - some time would be spent to collect the money and build those mines) - but I understand that may be a problem for the AI-Hayastan...
    from historical perspective, Hay situation should be quite comfortable. the region was never a subject to Alexander's invasion and enjoyed centuries of peace and prosperity under the Achaemenids (the were a couple of brief and minor Makedonian interventions during successor wars that barely had any impact). so it is a potential regional hegemon in waiting that enjoyed long period of peace which helped to accumulate a considerable amount of resources and manpower. if you look at it historically, the kingdom had a potential to serve as a springboard for an ambitions and capable ruler. indeed, when neighboring superpowers weakened, it accended to regional supremacy with remarkable impetus.

    the fact that Hayastan are tributary should not have a crippling effect. Seleukid overlodship was impermanent, often nominal or non-existent. that is not to say they had a formidable standing army that could match Seleukids in either numbers or professionalism. this is adequately represented in the game iirc. that leads to the issue of the mine income. i havent played EB in months and months and not sure what it looks like now. my experience from the previous versions was such that once you have a solid royal host/stack of a good quality (that includes a few units of both capable mercenary line infantry and a cream of local cavalry) it results in a major hit on your finances. it becomes increasigly difficult to turn a profit when on top of this standing army you maintain decent garrisons + keep the building projects going. add to this a reduction of 3k per year (tribute) and we ended up with a rather balanced situation imho (and thats when we had PSF around with they 1 unit free upkeep).


    The unit cards (2D) of Arvadni i Kappodakiya and Nezagdar i Kappodakiya are almost identical.
    seconded.

  6. #6

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.1] Hayasdan

    In your place, I would go for Trapezous first.

    It is clearly the most important target and should be conquered first.

  7. #7
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.1] Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    from historical pespective, at this stage southward invasions from beyond the Caucasus were neither frequent nor desicive. and Hay kings have never ever ventured north beyond Caucasus - there was absolutely no reason to, whichever way one looks at it.

    ... once you have a solid royal host/stack of a good quality (that includes a few units of both capable mercenary line infantry and a cream of local cavalry) it results in a major hit on your finances. it becomes increasigly difficult to turn a profit when on top of this standing army you maintain decent garrisons + keep the building projects going. add to this a reduction of 3k per year (tribute) and we ended up with a rather balanced situation imho
    ok, I agree to all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    In your place, I would go for Trapezous first.
    It is clearly the most important target and should be conquered first.
    Pontic army was there first.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; June 25, 2017 at 05:37 AM.

  8. #8
    Shatov's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.1] Hayasdan

    So how many of the old EB1 units or their close equivalents are in? Will I eventually see cataphract archers and late-model cataphracts with iron armor?

  9. #9

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.1] Hayasdan

    Updated the OP to match EB 2.3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shatov View Post
    So how many of the old EB1 units or their close equivalents are in? Will I eventually see cataphract archers and late-model cataphracts with iron armor?
    I suspect the late cataphracts being in at some day, personal opinion only of course. I do not have any more insight than anyone else into the plans of the EB team.
    Armoured horsearchers would be awesome but I've not read anything about them yet so perhaps we shouldn't hope too much.

    At the moment there are quite a few "original" EB 1 units in - from Caucasian Spearmen and archers (nowadays called "Anatolian") to Horsearchers and Cataphracts. I would like to see the Georgian medium infantry making an appearance again but I do not know if they are planned.

  10. #10
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.1] Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by Shatov View Post
    So how many of the old EB1 units or their close equivalents are in? Will I eventually see cataphract archers and late-model cataphracts with iron armor?
    Something to bear in mind: EB1 is neither suggestive nor indicative of what we're planning for EBII. There are a whole host of fantasy units with little or no historical evidence whatsoever in EB1 (Britons with two-handed swords and giant hammers, veils made of mail, the list goes on), which unsurprisingly will not be making an appearance. We don't use EB1 as a guide for the units that should be in EBII, they're all concepted independently of it.

  11. #11

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    Just the guide i needed to rebuild that pesky Achaemenid Empire!
    Although i have to say that i tried to use as historically as possible army composition, i find archers utterly useless in sieges, unless they sally forth and i use this prolonged sieges in the late game, i incorporate archers into my enemy stack annihilator permanent specialist army.
    I like blood baths what can i say and archer fights always end up in one.
    Anyway, just a fantastic guide all in all.
    Kudos to Shadow! Ahura Mazda preserve him
    Last edited by Cultist; November 01, 2017 at 05:08 AM.
    All life is problem solving ~ Karl Popper

  12. #12

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    I can not recruit any Assassins as Hayasdan in EB 2.3, whereas AS sends those across my empire, is that intended?

  13. #13
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffVader View Post
    I can not recruit any Assassins as Hayasdan in EB 2.3, whereas AS sends those across my empire, is that intended?
    They come from bigger markets; do you have any?

  14. #14

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    They come from bigger markets; do you have any?
    No, I don't have... I was just wondering as I am in the year 248 and still couldn't recruit them yet, but I see them in the Building description now.

    Thanks very much

  15. #15

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    Hai Assassins work just fine, I have a veteran one who's killed several Seleukid spies and other problematic elements. You just need a tier 3 (or was it tier 4?) market, which has the "large market" icon from RTW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cultist View Post
    Just the guide i needed to rebuild that pesky Achaemenid Empire!
    Although i have to say that i tried to use as historically as possible army composition, i find archers utterly useless in sieges, unless they sally forth and i use this prolonged sieges in the late game, i incorporate archers into my enemy stack annihilator permanent specialist army.
    Depends on the siege scenario. If you're the besieging party and the enemy sallies, archers can be quite useful for shooting at the disorganized blob forming in front of the enemy city gates. You can also try to give your archers ladders and have them take an unguarded wall section. If you're defending, it depends on the effective range of the unit. Though any regular foot archer unit of this faction has a decent range.

  16. #16

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    Just a quick 2.35 update as I didn't see it mentioned above (presumably it is added: taking Kutatisi triggers a war with the Sarmatians. I just did it, and have yet to see the consequences. I don't believe it's a real threat early in the game while they are locked up in a fight with Pahlava, but thought I'd point it out.

  17. #17
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    I think there's in-game warning while you try to siege Kutaisi.

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I think there's in-game warning while you try to siege Kutaisi.
    Yes, there is. It probably isn't worth worrying about too much in campaign terms. I sent a diplomat around to the Sauromatae straightaway and the ceasefire offer was perceived as generous. Problem solved and have had no trouble with them since.

  19. #19

    Default Re: [Basic Guide, EB 2.3] Hayasdan

    Thanks for the guide! It helped me greatly with choosing a faction for my Corona campaign, in EB 2.35. So far I am about 15 turns in and have concentrated on expanding on the Black Sea, where I had my heir conquer Kutaisi, Trapezous (I was lucky) and Ani-Pamah.

    I have one little addendum for your unit list: The Colchian Hoplites imho deserve a mention. I haven't really used them so far, but stat-wise they are at least equal to regular hoplites and they come in reasonable numbers (recruitment pool = 2) from Kutaisi even before your reform. With 7 armor, they can definitely be the heavy troops one lacks so much for city assaults. They are too few and too much of a logistical hassle to form the frontline once you aim to go imperial and expand beyond the Caucasus, but during your conquest of the neighbouring areas, a strike into Anatolia or the initial phase of a conflict with the AS they should be a valuable addition to your force.

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